Graffiti writer Spyar talks street life and tattooing KKPC#143

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 SPYAR ( UK GRAFFITI WRITER & TATTOOIST) KKPC #143
his weeks street Culture episode takes us into the world of the Graff street bomber, with Tattooist & artist SPYAR. We get the detailed accounts of Spyars life in honest detail, from the streets to the tattoo studio. From the hierarchy of Graff and his relentless drive to get up, to his transferral of skills into Tattooing and his migration from London to the british coast. This is the story of success and survival. This is Spyars Podcast. Documenting the Graffiti Artists of History past, before their critical acclaims and contributions to the urban arts. Disclaimer: This presentation is for documentation and educational purposes only. No hard drive copies, footage or records of any interviews are held by Killa Kela and once uploaded to the outlets listed below, those are the only records in existence. Any illegal activity discussed is neither encouraged, supported or incited.

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KILLA KELA


SPYAR ( UK GRAFFITI WRITER & TATTOOIST) KKPC #143 - Transcript
KILLA KELA: Ladies and Gentlemen this is the Killa Kela podcast reporting to you live and direct, shout out to Graffiti kings. Central as you need to be incognito style as we as we like to do and yes subscribe, tell a friend to tell a friend, share, yeah getting all those podcast platform providers and and push the button well we are inside with a fellow fellow writer he goes by the name of Spyar, what’s good?
SPYAR: what's happening, what’s happening? you alright?
KK: good. Brighton man.
S: yeah well, I'm Fulham of originally.
KK: Fulham originally.
S: yeah, I’m a London boy. But I live in Brighton.
KK:  Brighton is popping.
S: Killed the South Coast.
KK: did you?
S: I have done many times yeah, over the years. It’s the home away from home for me you know I mean at London’s still the place.
KK: Brighton’s got a vibe.
S: it has got.
KK: what was the attraction? I bet it was a baby.
S: yeah it was my baby mom.
KK: yeah that's how it goes.
S: yeah, yeah, that reason main reason why I kind of went back there and kind of wanted us settle down a little bit you know see the boy more.
KK: it's a slower pace.
S: it is a slower pace yeah, it's a little bit more chilled you know a little bit more relaxed there but the energy’s in London 
KK: Yeah, the energy is in London. I remember.
S: It’s Barcelona for me
KK: Ah, you’re a Barcelona fan.
S: Yeah, I love Barcelona.
KK: for the Sun.
S: The Sun the sand and the graffiti. 
KK: Yeah.
S: and the weed.
KK: yeah.
S: best weed.
KK: and the tapas. 
S: yeah, love a bit of tapas.
KK: yeah, everything feels fresher in fact anything outside of London feels fresher isn't it 
S: yes, you've got a good vibe about town you know Barcelona I've got of graffiti writers you know they show a lot of love to us London boys you know what I mean.
KK: you know what I'm getting more of an idea that they they definitely do yeah, I think on it I the graff over here's on its own vibe.
S: is it's very anal.
KK: I'd say yes, it’s a bit purist.
S: yeah it is very especially the London scene is very anal.
KK:  just to retract slightly, Spyar is a tattooist, tattooist, writer and like you say originally from London. I remember you back in the day I remember that I mean it's more very dub tactic I remember that, you know very trackside.
S: I'm more of a Street bomber I would say, more than anything I'm a street bomber. It’s all about getting up for me really. Handstyle, tags. yeah tags whip its beginnings where it ends.
KK: when'd it begins?
S: in 1995.
KK: 95? oh my god, yeah now it’s like yeah, we're talking like the initial smash you know because of course we retrospective here so the smash of of white black silvers you know in a mad hysteria on it
S: Yeah, it was carnage really you know you broke the lines you know, you'd meet other writers it was like how it was meant to be you know.
KK: mm-hmm wisdom so its Fulham on all the way.
S: Fulham, Shepherds Bush.
KK: who was at shepherd’s bush.
S: that’s where I was originally from from Fulham Shepherds Bush.
KK: Bush man, there was, I mean teach.
S: yeah, all the best writers come from Fulham.
KK: hey, hey,
S: all the best writers.
KK: them fighting words.
S: what you’ve got Fuel, Nice,
KK: yeah, fuel. True.
S: you know you got grand, chain the original take you know what I mean, you know.
 KK: of course, you got Trellick yeah you know what I mean,
S: and you got the grove writers, all that boys but yeah Fulham had a lot of different writers. The hall of a lot of mts there..
KK: were these people you kind of inspired by?
S: nah, and they kind of fueled the fire really, I got into it for graffiti writer called are called sinch(?)
KK: sinch
S: yeah, he started me him and mist though.
KK: Oh.
S: from North London.
KK: yeah.
S: Cos them two were pals. they were writing and I was a bit a road rat mile out then road shit and I linked up with him one night you know. I used to go school with sinch and that was it. yeah all kicked off. they had a tag, they started tagging it up and I was like I want to tag.
KK: you wanted to tag.
S: and that's where it started and then you know I kind of started going up north with Sinch because he's hung around a lot and off north writers you know my first crew was Public Royale, that was a  North London crew you know I was repping it around West a little bit  south  so that's how it kind of really started but I never really got on with you know the main writers of Fulham down to Sinch so.
KK: really so only Sinch then.
S: well yeah, he levelled someone's ass and it all got a bit out of hand and because I was associated with him it’s kind of you know.
KK: muddied the water.
S: Muddied the water for me. yeah but I was a super toy about it all I cared about was just getting my name up.
KK: yeah, I mean what is it what is it with with  and that did this suddenly I mean this is only from an outsider’s point of view. Definitely more notably seeing with with take is that he went through his style and there was this like this sweet spot where all the sudden you could see the evolving of his of his style through his age,
S: yeah you could consider that with the majority of writers
KK: That’s what I’m trying to say when is that when is that Goldilocks spot when is that.
S: I don’t know because you know I still have them days we do rough tags that  look like shit you know I don't care about, you know as long as it's there, that’s what I care about,  as long as it there. The name if you see it constantly when you’re doing a good job you know I mean cause if you know you could be there’s the million writers out there if you’re not putting in the work streets whatever blah blah blah you're just not gonna get known and then you know when you're gonna meet over people and you want to be in the gangs and whatever, no one knows who you are.
KK: yeah you it’s what's the word its coverage.
S: yeah you get up. you know there's a lot of people in AC at a minute that are not AC they're not all city they don't even leave the ends.
KK:  mmm yeah, I see that AC is a crew at the moment that is just literally like wildfire right.
S: yeah it was a good crew.
KK: yeah. 
S: it’s a bit watered down now.
KK: yeah, you’re not the first person to say that.
S: oh, you know I'm just, I mean I’ve been out the game for a little bit now since I've been tattooing you know what  I mean but I still keep my ear to the street and I still get you know I still speak to friends  I still see what’s going on online you know I mean.
KK: So, you’re keeping an ever watch on the scene,
S: Oh, I could never leave graffiti, it’s a curse on me, it’s what keeps me looking young.
KK: or grey rather.
S: yeah you could say that. Or Bald whatever, you know what I mean.
KK: the grey outfit.
S: train tracks mate.
KK: train tracks. This is the get up. 
S: this is the look.
KK: the look.
S: big up frontline for the mask.
KK: all day killer, so so it all began when you was super young then.
S: yeah, you know obviously you know snich was you know you know big crime wave in his teens in that week I he stopped in graffiti and I kind of caught the bug a night you know just carried on from there you know but you know I has a lot of DDS members line in my shit, I remember that. remember lining me, yeah.  for years and years and years friends with the majority of them now but for years we had an ongoing beef you know I mean and one of them said to me you know after about 15 years of it, if you can't beat them join them you know I mean. that’s you know kind of started letting me hang around with each other and it was all you know going out and all that shit you know. you know and obviously I mean I meet the king sham.
KK: yeah, hold tight sham all day.
S: and we just hit it off bro, DTP was that the only crew I ever wanted to be in sham was the only bomber know.
KK: that's right. Sham as we know is like highly regarded of you know a…
S: king of bombing.
KK: King of bombing. and a pioneer of that you know you don't know done they’ve done the groundwork basically that we'll get him on eventually.
S: One day maybe,
KK: Brighton though okay because we will get into into this I'm very intrigued about the tattoo thing tattooed, tattooing is it's almost like it is it’s a partnership with graff these days ,it’s just seems like um, but Brighton as a settlement again you know this go back to the moon let's get what was up with turn was the other places.
S: turner land
KK: turner land.
S: I never went there. I never really.
KK: Is it still there?
S: I don’t think it is. People just paint the streets now it's all green party, so you know if police roll up in there and you're just gonna get fine really. 
KK: yeah.
S: yeah.
KK: it's all changed.
S: It’s changed yeah. that's why I always tried to stick to the track sides when I was in Brighton or the street bombing you know because you know I can go, I do legal walls but after it’ll go and bomb whole street or go out and do a trackside you know it's not just a one minded thing you know.
KK: there's a bunch of writers, there’s aroe and like the list goes on but I do remember there was a certain time and I think they cut this like Das and hawks and those guys that falls into arena that is you know.
S: Yeah, dial, rip.
KK: yeah, yeah, dial all day hell yeah.
S: I mean they were like; they were doing their own thing when I was going up there, I was more of a street bomber my stuff was never pretty. it was never meant to be pretty I'm a graffiti writer not graffiti artists the difference between us two you know I mean Graffiti writers all about getting up hitting it damage do you you know I mean.
KK: More, more, more.
S: Graffiti artists they want to do all that, but you know they want to do 30 colors on a wall spend all day on it. I haven’t got the time and the patience.
KK: what do you think it the perception is the people that are graffiti bombers like I mean you and you.
S: well there is no bombers anymore really.
KK: no no I mean you're a well-articulated guy you know what you want you you have I mean in the conversation so you, you, you, you, you, you direct you driven you know what you want and you're doing your thing and and you work hard  people's perceptions of bombers.
S: but I never worked hard I was a thief that was the all common cunt you know I mean I was out there every day. you know raising all sorts of shit just like the rest of them I just they want to do that forever.
KK: hmm what changed.
S: I thought I dunno all my friends go in jail dying you know getting old turning into junkies you know shit like that. Didn’t wanna end up like that you know. I’ve done a lot of shit in my life; cut a lot of people you know what I mean.
KK: was that, was that a real thing.
S: yeah it was difficult at first but once you cut out the dead wood you know life gets better.
KK: yeah. yeah you don’t see at a time innit because you you just go into what you you you know.
S: exactly.
KK: yeah, do you think that homed in the aggression of the the bombing that you did was it was there an aggression to it.
S: of course, there was. I’ve grown up in a broken home. My dad died of heroin when I was a kid, my mom was a junkie, do you know what I mean. it it was angry angry and and in days you couldn't really you couldn’t you can't really hold us down you know go out and just climb the under wall and do  shit you know I mean, you could do whatever you want back then, you know what I mean.  you know, I lived with parents that weren't really strict with you. I could do whatever I wanted it that's why I ended up as a criminal at nine years old. going out nicking mopeds and Pioneer pull outs and shit you know.
KK: I mean born into the game almost. Its suggestable. 
S: yeah yeah kind of yeah. you know diamond in a rough getting polished each day.
KK: yeah, baby that’s the one.
S: I've been you know I've been around the world I wouldn’t have done It if I was not self-educated and you know wanting to better myself.
KK: yeah, without a question graff saves lives man.
S: and you know I wanted a you know show my son a better life and how you know to better yourself you can always do it you know I mean, you’re never too old.
KK: yeah, actually with that with that life experience of of what you went through do you think that makes it more easier to translate the the big degree impact if you've got kids like yo this won’t happen to you if you do this I've been there and I know it  do you think that if do you think that's resonates with kids.
S: nah, because when you're a kid you don’t really listen, do ya. You think you know I all, but you don’t. With age comes wisdom, ya know.
KK: wisdom, yeah. And also, the thing
S: You’re not born with wisdom.
KK: no no.
S: You have to go through the shit, so you know to know what's what and take the path you want to go you know. you go down many paths.
KK: often like when you've got your parents telling you not to do something, nine times out of ten, you're gonna do the opposite anyway yes.
S: yeah, I never had parents doing that though you know, you know, I've never really had that. telling me no if they said no I just would have done it anyway you know from a young age I was smashing my guitars up and putting holes in walls and shit was always a vandal you know I mean my mom got me a t-shirt saying demolition expert at works you know me when I was five it was kind of it is in my head you know I’m a vandal from young basically.
KK: dude that’s crazy.
S: you know, I used to get off smashing windows you know there's use to be a place in Brooklyn for next the film call opposite Parsons Green called the London Transport it was like an old derelict yard used to play and hide and shit in there but we used to just go in a smash you up it was fun you know, I used to love it , you know what I mean. And then you know I used to find a bit of graffiti spray and I could write my name everywhere and see it walking down the road and you know it was sick.
KK: the buzz.
S: yeah, yeah getting on trains and you know smashing the insides, getting on it three hours later, on your train you like there’s my shit. Its sick you know I mean. 
KK: that's mad. that's mad. it's crazy that you your kind of it was all you knew.
S: yeah, yeah it was either that or crime.
KK: yeah did it steer you away from crime at all?
S: a little bit yeah my friends were doing bigger crimes and I was you know more interested in getting my name up and they didn't want to hang around someone that's putting out a pen every five minutes getting tags on the streets and shit.
KK: is it a deterrent? Do you think it’s a deterrent?
S: so they didn't really want to hang around with me too because I was just plating them up you know I mean if you think about it if they are out doing a move, they don’t want me writing their name around the place.
KK: fear.
S: Cos it makes no sense.
KK: cos their risk is far greater.
S: exactly.
KK: that is funny innit.
S: exactly I know they do is laugh at like why you write your name everywhere stupid and in a way it is. It is what it is innit?
KK: but it's addictive and it's this thing that you know in conversations so many conversations I've had you know what what the mechanics behind that like what different states are them persons.
S: It depends a writers and graffiti artists are different you know. They’ve got a different drive and mentality you know.
KK: No but, criminals, I mean like hardened criminals that can deem that that as not being as as it's more bait than than anything they were doing that's a strange dynamic.
S: yeah but I know hardened criminals that write, and they don’t give a shit they'll still write even though, they're gonna go you know what I mean, it depends on the person you know what I mean.
KK: I guess so yeah.
S: everyone’s different no one's the same.
KK: what the intentions are. saved your life though.
S: yeah, it's nearly took it a few times as well, yeah yeah. I’ve had a lot of up and downs with graffiti.
KK: what was the biggest downs?
S: well, you know snapping my tendon in my knee that was pretty pretty bad.
KK: what from that from going out?
S: yeah from graffing. falling out with friends and that, you know what I mean.
KK: just internal.
S: just up and downs you know what graffiti is like mate, it's fickle yeah you know it's got no love for no one really you know you're at the game for 10 minutes and no one cares about your no one knows who you are because there’s new lots that’s come through. Thinking they done it all.
KK: they’re certainly like these kinds of broken these fractions of graff like this aggressive side of that bombing and what not that that does come with it its own issues doesn't it comes with its own scene and rules.
S: yeah, of course but yeah, anything does, doesn’t it? but you know bombing it's the beginning and it's the end yeah you know you wouldn't have no pretty piece if it weren't for attack.
KK: like cap back in the day.
S: yeah, cap.
KK: that is that is that a general philosophy that kind of still.
S: No, you know I just kind of think, you a bomber innit. that’s what you do. You don’t need to have no artistic skill in to go out bombing you know just a drive and a nice you know you know attitudes towards it. Aggressive.
KK: Um, what was I coming to…
S: because I was never an artistic route you know, I never really wanted to do dubs, pieces ,I only did that because people who said ah do a piece and you know it just is part of graffiti ,so I saw it as part of graffiti but it’s always about bombing. Tags.
KK: um yes so, the culture behind that is also is infectious isn't it the lifestyle did that was was the lifestyle as heavy.
S: Everything’s free.
KK: yeah everything.
S: Everything’s free. A lot drugs drink alcohol was a big fuel.
KK: yeah, I can imagine so and quite easily obtainable if you know raising everything.
S: it's free innit.
KK: yeah I feel like you know I, I find that whole mindset so intriguing because um as an artist myself I’ve definitely hit bread lines sometimes which you do you've you can’t be you can't be on it all the time and winning and yeah well not when my back's gone right against the wall, I'm thinking to myself what I'm gonna do and and I just find it really intriguing that that there is actually a life that happens where people just do that inherently.
S: you know it’s either you live or you die in it you know yes yeah you know people don't grow up in rich families where we from, so yes I go out and just take it wherever you wanted you know,, I mean I remember I used to go out and raise food for me and my little brother sand shit like that cause my mom was doing more if she was doing you know I mean.
KK: ah so you provided.
S: yes, you had to to survive you know I mean I wouldn’t get new clothes and I said you know when Harrods or Selfridges and ripped the alarm off I mean things like that.
KK: tactics.
S: yes survival tactics you know you have to do to do I mean not back then I was more of a champagne thief because he was pretty easy to get and it was ten pound a bottle you know I used to go more so I used to go out Nick champagne that was my thing 
KK: Really, yeah.
S: all the vintages, all the vintages I’d keeps. All of them and I had a lot of vintages.
KK: did you keep them?
S: I drank them, didn’t I?  probably in a mug we've no handle you know I mean but still it was that the finer things in life it to go and get them.  and you know and when you taste the finer things you wanna know okay he's fine out here oh no you know I want to experience these fine things yeah you know and if you don't go out get these fine things you ain't gonna get the fine things are ya?
KK: you know what and I think there is something to be said about that you know I mean you’ve got go and get it, gotta run for it. there's a lot of business acumen that comes with graff when you really think about it when you break it down the marketing tools that are applied now to a lot of things they they were founded by a lot of graff the bombing side of things that’s no different to have marketing done.
S: it’s how you get known yeah, I know I know plenty of train writers that you know just do trained solid train writers you know, I'll show you folders and folders of trains. they're they’ve never done Street bombing are never done any track sides; you’d never know who they were. I'm this guy I’ve 30000 trains who are you? No one is seeing your name you know I mean it’s like you know it's that the elusive tang I used to like you know like swerve.
KK: yeah, yeah.
S: this really weird hand style, it but it was everywhere do you know I mean it was aloof you never know who he was you never see him you never you know you've no dubs no nothing just just a tag.
KK:  I remember that so well swerve, man yeah there's a few anomalies isn’t there you know obviously the as I know that they seem to be the ones that get up in the most prime spots but then they disappear.
S: yeah but yeah, I mean a lot of real writers disappear due to prison or death.
KK: is that is that,
S: Yeah, that’s what I would say yeah more prison you know slows them down more than anything.
KK: hmm yeah.
S: I mean when they get out, they have to be prolific just to let people know they're out KK: yeah, like a drug addict going straight to the needle I suppose.
S: yeah.
KK: and then they overdose, yeah OD on the tag.
S: yeah.
KK: It’s mad, it’s mad obviously like Brighton is a very different place and at the time you were out here you then moved to Brighton when?
S: About 8 years ago. 
KK: 8 years ago.
S: About two years after I started tattooing. 
KK: wow.
S: In London, yeah.
KK: where were you tattooing.
S: well I was tattooing out a shop called ten-ton tattooing Pearlie? he gave me an apprenticeship you know I looked hard for it. Two years looking really, he only liked me because I was a writer anyway, do you what I mean? Big up ten-ton Adam.
KK: Hold tight ten ton. Hold tight.
S: he kind of you know give me the pardon, it helps me out showed me the ways and like parted ways with him started tattooing from home a bit you know going round to him a bit and then I found a shop because you know for me it’s what about being in the studio you know you're not gonna be taken seriously if you're in a studio so you know you know if you were running around your house and then people in your house then I start trying to take the piss and I aint about people taking the piss. 
KK: the the whole idea of the relationship between in graff and tattooing it feels like the natural progression.
S: well for me, yeah you know it’s like you know you can't just buff from that you need a laser for my shit. You know what I mean.
KK: it's gonna fucking hurt.
S: yeah, and to be fair it took me a long time took to grab it you know I mean so I've always been a bit but I always wanted to do it the right way you know I mean I've got did my apprenticeship the right way you know always critiquing myself but now I’ll just you know I'm just concentrating on lettering go now my letters you know I want to push that.
KK: yeah, it's really coming on. h it's like that the West Coast looking, heavy shit.
S: yeah but I'm trying to make it my own you know I mean you know how it is you gotta get your influenced from somewhere you know that these too much buy-in but it’s the year I'm trying to make it my own style.
KK: a distinctive style
S: yeah, you know everyone’s got their own hand styles their own flicks and just trying to progress in mine and try and get better every day you know what I mean.
KK: explain that explain the techniques of tattooing you know as a layman’s thing,
S: you know there's different types of tattoos you know you've got the old-school traditional tattoos, you've got a new-school tattoos, got traditional you know I've got people that specialize in their own specific thing, you know what I mean so yeah I want to kind of specialize in lettering you know I love letters. That’s where I've always come from.
KK: that’s your vibe.
S: yeah you know hand styles lettering nice you know blocks yeah execute some shit.
KK: have you ever tattooed a copper?
S: oh yeah yeah and I got arrested by their mate and I saw them in a police station.
KK: stop it.
S: that was quite funny.
KK: Stop it, that’s mad. 
S: yeah that was quite funny, and thing was she had a she had Cunt in Arabic.
KK: Stop it.
S: and I got rid of it and as she was telling me it was funny because I can always spot I always know the police officer. as I was talking to her what's your job and she’s oh you I know I work I work for like security firm with and I’m like you a police officers, I am yeah. Oh okay. 
KK: shits crazy.
S: so yeah but I don't tend to tattoo police. I don’t really like the police to be fair.
KK: culture coming around and falsely.
S:  police have hindered my life in so many ways no trust.
KK: no trust.
S: no trust.
KK: no love.
S: no love.
KK: it's crazy, how cultures gone around, a full-circle, way you've got like public figures police officers etc. doing having having tags are associated with them, graffiti tattoos and it's just it's just a given now.
S: yeah, we'll see police officers they tend to get that tribal it's no offensive you know I mean.
KK: oh, I see.
S:  they don’t really get any imagery go just get a bit tribal.
KK: is that is that is that is that as the the job role suggest they need to be neutral.
S: uh probably yeah.
KK: so, when you’ve got cunt in when you're a copper and you got cunt in Arabic yeah yeah, it's got to be a questionable offense officer.
S: she got it done in Turkey as well apparently so, he must have known as well. He could have smelt her.
KK: She was probably drunk or something. She must be.
S: yeah, I dunno mate. Deserved it though. yeah because you know the thing was you know when I was tattooing her, I was all right okay I want to ask you some questions now what's the difference between a law and an act. she you know she couldn't tell me, and I was thinking you’re a police officer you should know the difference between an actual law, and an actual act. You know parliament and shit.
KK: What’s the difference. Explain that.
S: well a law is, like law of the land. It’s like no murder, theft etc. you know. criminal damage stuff like that is an act you know it is brought in by a parliament of members you know people saying this should be criminalized, but the only reason what it did is to make money so that's the whole, that's what that’s what they're there for to make money. For the rich.
KK: yeah so that’s the difference between law and act. yeah, it's very it's very hard to when it comes to law with tattooing for instance, I see a lot of characters and art being done that's kind of copyrightable like you get the characters.
S: yeah and I know what you mean.
KK: yeah but you know how that can be.
You could never stop that what do you everyone’s done that on that because obviously before you can draw you can be a tattooist it’s iPad. you know anyone can draw l and write.
KK: oh yeah, that’s true. I know you sketch it out and then you.
S: you know you know are you an artist if you using an iPad you might be digital artist but I don't think you're an actual artist ,artist you know because you know you can't even put a straight line without it going over at about five times and tapping the pad you know that’s not art.
KK: do tattooists use them iPad and that.
S: a lot of do now yeah and they use a lot of rotaries as well and you know join pens and I’m loyal to the coil.
KK: Yeah, yeah, ohhhhhh.
S: Loyal to the coil. try and keep I told school you know mentality old-school.
KK: yeah that's what I'm saying it's like that some of the practices need to be like it's fixed first you got to do shit right.
S: yeah, I mean.
KK: on a hardcore setup not like, cut corners.
S: yeah, you know you’ve got good rotaries out there, but you know I'm talking about the shine pens man you know they’ve ruined the tattoo game with the iPad.
KK: That’s what I’m thinking. Everything is at the mercy of technology nowadays.
S: yeah, yeah everything. you know even graffiti you know you can paint that’s take for instance man, I've got followers from LA and shit you know, I mean around the world I've been you know Brighton some legal spot and you know I’ve seen around the world yeah before you'd have to go you'd have to get up and go and see it you know which is taking the passion you know.
KK: I agree.
S: you know, I've lost a lot of love over years and love again so it's like an ex-girlfriend graffiti for me you know, I mean is that I love her, but I hate her at the same time. I politics as well in it you know I mean people getting bullied over know no reason and people’s die it’s just bullshit mate. There’s a lot of you know childish.
KK: what mood are you in about at the moment what your current state of mind.
S: I'm not in the game anymore really in in the UK scene I mean I got more love for Barcelona; you know I mean big up fleps you know original G you know.
KK: hold tight, fleps. yeah.
S: you know what I mean.
KK: Fleps Is something else.
S: Happy birthday mate.
KK: birthday boy.
S: Big up case as well you know I mean he's the one that you know showed me the ropes out there birth tell you sure he killed it you know I mean some serious missions no KK: yeah big up Case all day. yeah, I get what you mean I think I have the same thing with music, if I’m honest with you. yeah, this podcast is a very nice life light relief yeah to what.
S: It’s like that with rapper as well you know raps shit now you know I mean it is it's not what he used to be you know this.
KK: do you think that.
S: people that people haven't even got a decent tone in their voice are rapping and I find it funny and not even like it doesn’t even drop, it weird.
KK: there's a lot of it.
S: but you know it's the youngsters the young punk in it you know you know yeah everyone got a bit of punk in them.
KK: you into punk music?
S: I was brought up with punks
KK: brought up with punks.
S: yeah.
KK: was there were you Mum kind of got the lifestyle was she like heavily into punk?
S: yeah, yeah and my dad. My dad’s sister he she went out with him topper from The Clash, so you know that's kind of where I learned a lot of history as well in the early days of my history because he bought ?? over.
KK: hold on so right so your uncle.
S: not blood uncle.
KK: no but your uncle.
S: yeah, he's a family friend yeah.
KK: Man, that’s crazy.
S: he was my aunt for years they've done the Japanese tour with him and you know with the clash and that.
KK: tell me yeah did you see did he sight any conversations about  or anything. 
S: no, no.
KK: That shit was crazy though. 
S: yeah, he doesn't really say much anymore he keeps himself a lot out of it you know he's dropped out with the dead wood basically yeah and respect to him for that.
KK: yeah yeah, I can imagine there's a lot of that yeah you got to get out.
S: yeah yeah you know in them days it was wasn’t it a lot of drugs girls you know I was whole different world.
KK: yeah It was a whole different world. there was no social media.
S: exactly yeah went down the Kings Road in their fuckin Punk outfit you know I mean.
KK: not got a camera in your face or anything. 
S: you know doing their thing, writing anarchy on the wall, you know. you know the first graffiti I saw was no parking. He was up.
KK: do you remember when they  were marking off the tags and stuff like these weird black cover-ups that's it you know they you said you know just just to fucking coverup a tag though yeah make it big kind of square triangular looking black mark that inadvertently became the most up thing.
S: yeah football clubs as well when I was growing up. That was everywhere. My old man he used to write saw at PG of FFC, Fulham west Hamish with his mate yeah.
KK: there's something really endearing about that time I was talking the sime about it it’s like it's so authentically raw, you know what I mean. it's layer to its core that is you find that any cul-de-sac it's just like someone just had to fucking I'm gonna fucking put that up the intent with a can to go put you know FC something.
S: right when I first moved to Cornwall  you know I wanted to get away from London for a bit so I had a lot going on they say back in 98, So I went down there for a year you and I've got to this little village on the top of nowhere four lanes yeah and I’m standing by this bus and I looked around and all I saw was FFC rule. And I all I thought was fuck, I’ll never get away from Fulham.
KK: travelled so far.
S: Travelled around the world and I always see a Fulham support wearing a t-shirt somewhere or some shit ya know. I mean its home innit. I see you know even when I'm away I'm still repping Fulham 100 percent.
KK: so, you're Big footy fan?
S: Nah, I’m not a footy fan, nah, nah. I’ve never been a football fan, I used to take my anger out on graffiti, didn’t I? didn’t have time for football.
KK: yeah, I've never understood football personally.
S: nah, I'm not down for watching a load of rich dudes kicking a bit of leather around.   I’ve never really got it.
KK: Chase girls don't chase balls.
S: yeah that’s it, you know, that’s much more fun.
KK: do you think with like technology now like it it hinders the progression it's like people take a photo of something even a dub or a tag and then also that goes everywhere that’s like the new form of like.
S: yes back in a day mate I had a bag full of cameras mate and I remember taking a few of them said you know in the camera shop, borrowing if I was gonna get an nicked fuckin if they're gonna get taken and then get nothing back having a a finger over most of them so you know I stopped taking pictures it wasn't my thing I just thought fuck the pictures.
KK: just oh yeah it just becomes more of a burden.
S: it's just yeah you know I mean you’re walking down a road you got camera on you as well mate, I just that was never really a camera, cameraman I was always in it just in the for the moment.
KK: do you use your cellphone, your normal phone.
S: you know I'll try if I ever go out, I'll leave it at home I don't want you on me. l
KK: really?
S: yeah.
KK: so that’s why it’s hard to get a hold of ya incog.
S: yeah.
KK: Every time what about when you got bookings and things like that for.
S: Instagram.
KK: Instagram all day.
S: all yeah keep it for one social media really.
KK: what's it what’s to tell people what your Instagram is, by the way. Just so we can get your tattooing going.
S: Dirtyletters.
KK: Dirtyletters you know what I mean.
S: Dirty letters. Come see me for that lettering.
KK: and it’s only Brighton innit.
S: yes Brighton. you know I'm looking through some guests’ spots in London I'm doing a couple of guest spots in Brussels and yeah you know travelling about.
KK: so, you do any travel and you only do it.
S: I travel all over the place I’ve in Norway the Spain, Tenerife you know do my thing. Getting bookings. 
KK: Tell me a story about your heaviest mission.
S: My heaviest mission.
KK: C’mon that’s what they want.
S: I’d rather not mention missions because I incriminate myself in admission, I'd rather not even I'd rather not.
KK: Alright then.
S: you know what I’m saying.
KK: yeah, yeah. You ever been in jail though?
S: I’ve been in jail yeah but not for graffiti. I’ve been arrested plenty of times for graffiti but never in jail for graffiti yeah, I tell you funny, funny story.
KK: tell me a funny story.
S: I got arrested for painting police van that was quite funny. I should have told this before is it's been about yeah but yeah that was that was a funny story.
KK: that’s hilarious oh my god.
S: so yeah I was a strip club with one of my pals I'm gonna say any names and I was out in a strip club I went very well at the time I had some mad flu mate and he was trying to cheer me up, get my pull. I was like alright. Fuck it. We were out at the Queen hand she was the queen hands I think yeah Foxhall so you know I walked past I said that police vans have been there for a while, I might paint it, so I have a  pulling and you know come out see what its saying in it so you know I’ve come out still there so I've said to my partner I'm gonna go and get some paint I'll be back in a minute so I went round the corner so I was living in ? at the time, went around the corner grab my tins come back starts doing this DT bead up next thing I know I look around I see these two old bill running slowly but walking really fast so I've tried to run across the green of Vauxhall and slipped and next to me old bill  but I was I was fighting I drunk half  a bottle of whiskey that day. I was a mess you know what I mean. 
KK: in your normal demeanor you wouldn't have even gone there.
S: yeah I would have gone there but I think I would have been a bit more quicker on my toes if I wasn’t so rundown but it was funny because when I got to the police station or late they can be but they can’t believe it you know 
KK: what the fuck you are doing.
S: dubbing a police van. I was like well you know Gordon brown just got in you know all the politic shit right yeah. Gordon Brown just got in you know he’s cut everyone's wages, sold all our gold so I was gonna you know they don’t trust Brown you know I think it’s a finish you know I mean. and they all thought it was funny so they jotted that dan so you know get released the next day , obviously go to Campbell well court  the judge is there he's like looking at me he's reading this thing I can he a smile on his face and he’s like yeah 30 hours community service. 
KK: Oh my god.
S: I thought it was pretty good, you know what I mean. The thing is.
KK: That’s a stroke of luck for ya.  Do not try that at home.
S: as funny as it was about a month for after I’ve got the 30 days I'd snapped my knee innit yeah so I had to keep getting sick notes saying can't do my community service so in the end I'm back to court and they just squash the community service.
KK: Oh my god. You got lucky boy.
S: Yeah, I’d say lucky yeah but.
KK: you done your ankle.
S: Yeah, I done my leg in yeah. but that didn't stop me at the time. Still went out still did my but you know what I mean.  probably more prolific with a fucked leg.
KK: That’s probably cos of the handicap.
S: I couldn’t run neither mate, it was fucked. Yeah, snapped a tendon.
KK: How long that take you out of action?
S: about three years.
KK: three years.
S: yeah it kept on I kept on reopening the wound as well you know I mean went out with Mear a couple of times and you know me he heard it he heard it snap. not one night.
KK: really, he had the clunk.
S: mate, his face said it all but so funny.
KK: what happened you just.
S: I just hopped over a fence and it went. This was like the second time I done; it you know I'd already done it a couple of times before that.
KK: Mate, that’s like end of mission innit. That’s end of the night.
S: yeah well now cos we still did it still did the mission.
KK: that must have killed.
S: yeah, I was in pain yeah and I was on and I was on the tag as well6 o'clock curfew.
KK: oh no oh crap.
S: yeah those were mad days.
KK: what's all that um curfews and things like that.
S: bullshit.
KK: is it so they would you know detect where you are and then I am completely.
S: listen listen normally I'd have been home at 6 o'clock no worries like you know that's normally when I got home but when you're on a tag for some reason mate trying to get home for six o’clock hard work just because yeah I don’t know what it is mate you know soon as the tag was off I was at home at six o’clock on the dot you know I mean 
KK: yeah yeah you couldn't write it.
S: yeah you know you I just got brixton a lot and I was living in East London you know I mean I sometimes shit get get fucked up or I'd get fucked up and yeah just you know struggle to get back for 6-quarter past six you know friends you know phone ringing.
KK: what do  they say when you're late.
S: why you late where are you what you are doing.
KK: really.
S: yeah you know.
KK: and that becomes that what do you get penalized.
S: I dunno, I didn’t do it enough times.
KK: so, they give you a verbal warning on the phone.
S: yeah or they come around and like you know give you a check if you're in. its bullshit it's a government bullshit you know it's that imprisonment.
KK: yeah, yeah but but at least you're not locked up.
S: they’re all locked up mate.
KK: are you a conspiracy theorist or are you a realist.
S: I'm a thinker. 
KK: yeah.
S: I'm a thinker.
KK: what’s your current. Can I ask.
S: I'll just I'll just think and listen and learn.
KK: can I ask you something.
S: I’m not preacher man.
KK: yeah no but there are theories and I want your theory on if you have one on this coronavirus.
S: well you know I've at the coronavirus for years mate you know what I mean but you know, I don’t know what to say about it. It is what it is and its pandemic every hundred years innit.
KK: I'm thinking so, but I mean.
S: oh they were putting Netflix programs on Netflix about pandemic last year so I think I'll try to tell us a little something and you know if you look at yes some of the programs that they kind of push it on telly is kind of saying you know we're fucked. you know and we are too much plastic everywhere you know I mean don’t need plastic wrap around our fruit for fuck sake. We don’t need that bull shit.
KK: with bananas bananas they have a wrap.
S: yeah like melons and that. what you are wrapping it in plastic for its just pointless. wrapping everything it's greedy people.
KK: and what happens is likely I mean let’s remember right fucking China have been eating alternative foods whatever it is forever.
S: hey, I don’t eat Chinese. I don’t eat Chinese man.
KK: the Ganges right Chinese people swimming that shit.
S: I don't eat Chinese I used to, but I worked through a Chinese takeaway when I was about 16-17, I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen some shit.
KK: really? really? 
S: yeah you are smoking Marlborough’s maybe I should get in on it.  damn I used to like a chow mien as well you know in there like you know drag the bin through the kitchen then drop food on the floor pick it back up. Oh, the heat will kill it. Nah it doesn’t. man, people send me videos of him eating raw frogs alive yeah what the fuck yeah fucking frogman see don't see you have to do that.
KK: it's just I can't quite workout the culture, but it means it's.
S: yeah yes, it is very alien to us you know I mean under halfway across the border mate.
KK: you know I mean have you ever been out there.
S: no, I've never seen the closest I’ve been to Asia is the Maldives.
KK: Maldives. Nice.
S: Yeah it was good.
KK: Very nice. you travel a lot for, you traveled a lot for graff. Well Spain.
S: yeah well not for graff but yeah just Spain really yeah Tenerife Spain.
KK: where would you want to go? what would be the spot?
S: I don't know.
KK: what about tattooing, where’s the spot you'd like to go in.
S: I would I would like to say America, but I doubt if I'd be allowed into America.
KK: really?
S: Criminal record. Yeah.
KK: how long it, lasts forever?
S: Course, you always on the system aint ya.
S: I'm hearing all kinds of stories they want to see you you know your social media for the past blah blah wanna read you Texts I’d rather I'd rather not go.
KK: as in it like if you've got a criminal record.
S: yeah, we got better places in Europe. other parts of the world.
KK: yeah yeah yes, I appreciate that yeah.
S: they are pioneered a lot of shit, but I can’t that away from them.
KK: But if they aren’t gonna let you in.
S: If they aren’t gonna let me in.
KK: I find that interesting people dig the way the countries adapt.
S: I don’t like the way they think as well. You know because you know they call it Mexicans immigrants. It’s their land by rights really you to say that they're an immigrant mate I said they were brought up there, you know. What your building a wall? For what? the mentality just blows my mind. But you know they got some sick shit out there, ya know, the trains and that. it's all popping off out in New York this minute well.
KK: oh yeah, I noticed that as well.
S: I mean whole cars getting done.
KK: Its actually insane. I saw that. I can’t remember where I saw it but again you know social media the accessibility to see that stuff immediately its insane.
S: so, you know all the writers you know back in the day we just keep you know look up foreign writers used to keep in Contact, letters you know I mean. Letters and shit like that, you know what I mean? they'd come over on and meet writers did a bit and vice versa.
KK: yeah, oh so they came to you.
S: not never me mate I was to any social.
KK: yeah so you were saying, kind of a lone star.
S: Yeah, I mean I rolled with of people but I'm a lone wolf really. I have this shit on my own I still go bombing on my own.
KK: is that is that choice you preferred it.
S: yeah, it's nice to have one more man with you but it's more of a one-man thing.
KK: because it becomes a liability doesn’t it.
S: I mean it’s good with two people, but one man is the best because you know you know yourself if you're gonna get yourself in trouble it's because of you. Saying that when it comes to going yard, the more the better. 30 man.
KK: You reckon.
S: yeah more chance.
KK: I see does it and and.
S: but so, my opinion it’s just what I think. it’d be nice to see more trains battered with tags as well not just dubs and piece spring it back.
KK: the pack mentality you mean for for those kinds of events.
S: what you mean?
KK: going out in like.
S: yeah if you’re gonna go out and do yards then I think the more the better, I mean 30 man in the yard, nice. shits gonna stop ya.
KK: yeah there’s that. 
S: mean you know you got three three writers’ mate, they're gonna bring out the whole force yeah you know if they got 30 writers, I did there's gonna go out just clean it.
KK: mmm-hmm yeah they'll get cleaned at the same time so nice it ‘it’s an interesting time, right now.
S: yeah, it's good, its good.
KK: do you believe in the the broken window theory.
S: what’s that?
KK: so well I stole about the other day Koch from who used to be the mayor of New York, he said that it's the broken window effect that kind of installed in between government in governments from a society point of view that if you've got a broken window then it’s a derelict window. If it’s a derelict building, then you've got graffiti on the building. If you’ve got graffiti on the building you've got an antisocial area if you got the answer social area, then new laws can come.
S: I think graffiti brings life to towns, as well.
KK: I agree.
S: it does you know I mean like take ports lade for instance maybe was a dead little shitty town so until I moved there then I started bringing all my London mates down me and we fucked it up and he started looking a little bit busier shops for opening people were out and about you know.
KK: Gentrification came in. trendy
S: Before it was a shitty port slade. You know what I mean, nothing there. You know it was you know wasteland really, but you know few tags brings it back to life those people that were there like living there.
KK: yeah and it’s the most unsung component of redevelopment because I just feel, you’ve had to.
S: I just, I think you know what its's not it's not gonna stop me from tagging a new build it's just gonna make me want to hear even more cos I've got these nice soft smooth surfaces you know you’ve got a nice pen a bit of flow master is fucked.
KK: yeah totally, totally.  I appreciate exactly what you're saying I mean.
S: it's it's a beautiful thing.
KK: l, I guess I guess from your point of view it's all the surfaces matter.
S: um apart from that old fuckin shitty brick.
KK: what kinds that?
S: you know like that old medieval brick; I don’t like that shit.
KK: do you have any like or is it reservations for hitting any particular things back in the day.
S: Nah, you know I've hit churches hospitals I'll take anything.
KK: that never fazed you.
S: nah. Vandal innit.
KK: Vandal first.
S: Vandal for life mate, you know that was the mentality you know born a vandal, die a vandal, you know.
KK: and it's funny isn't it that there is that that ingredient in graff that is either lot to somebody or minor or is actually the complete opposite but there's this like harmony in which two sides play, do you know what I mean like  the Vandal side and the.
S: The artistic side. The creative side.
KK: sometimes they play sometimes they crack I mean there are exceptions to the rules.
S: don't get me wrong I love you know I love pieces and dubs. I love seeing them you know. I like doing them.
KK: yeah yeah yeah.
S: there's a difference the difference between.
KK:  I’m not discrediting you at all for anything.
S: no, no now do you know what it isn't it you know styles so many different styles somehow could be something beautifully you know I personally think the old London style was the best.
KK: give me some examples.
S: desire he's style sick you know me always had that flavored you know I mean that London edge you know, who else. ?, sharp style you know I mean you know there was a lot of decent rank cons you know boast had a nice bubble style he was one of the ones that started me writing. Boast mts he's got an inside so, I started going on the insides he showed me the little plots. he took me about me to plots you know I like spellings whatnot you know I mean there was a good belt on plot run back in the day. It was like the main spot.
KK: Really. 
S: Yeah.
KK: Yeah because it's just outside of like it's not too close into London where people have got the word.
S: yeah you stuff the buzz in and buzzing out man, it was a wicked little plot. 
KK: really.
S: yeah and the racks for there as soon as you went in, the racks where there. get a a puffer jacket.
KK: brazen.
S: I got to big up B&Q as well. They provided a lot of my shit back in the day.
KK: ones of B&Q hold tight.
S: and the outfits. If you got there early enough the jet blacks the reason why they were gone mates because I had already got there.
KK: do you think it's the youthful support do you think with age comes wisdom do you think?
S: of course, it does. You’re not born with wisdom.
KK: no but you and you just wanted I mean you've stopped.
S: I’ve never stopped I've just you know slowdown for a minute yeah. I come in waves some writers come in waves I you know you've got a deal shit no you know but your priorities are right you know I mean you know I mean I don’t you know I'm quite happy to minute and you know I've got a nice little life going  you know I mean so I'm sure to happy going home. Doing my shit.
KK: I’m really happy for you it sounds like it sounds like in all fairness brother you’ve had you've had a very heavy beginning of your life.
S: Yeah its been turbulent yeah, it still it but you know you got those mental problems you know.
KK: yeah mental literal or mental.
S: you know its day to day life. a mental problem in it these days. The day to day life is life is a struggle for a lot of people.
KK: for you?
You know, not anymore.
KK: yeah, it's good it’s good when it's relieved.
S: but it could change any minute you know yeah turmoil again; you know I mean.
KK: but to  have had experienced that before is there a kind of process in your head where you're like actually I've had this hit cuz I do it all times like oh hold on I've had shit that's worse than it happened before I think on how to figure this out and not go backwards.
S: yeah but sometimes you know things just happen you know you can't stop, you know, barge through. You know there’s stuff in the world that you can’t stop.
KK: yeah especially as you get older things are completely out of our control.
S: yeah yeah.
KK: and that's I guess what's what you’re saying is like when priorities take take precedent and opportunities arise or.
S: yeah you just got a growth grab opportunity by the head.
 KK: you gotta get up.
S: That’s what I would say. Get up. that's what it matters.
KK: you into tattoo, fashion you like fashion and music?
S: I've always liked music bar more of an old-school hip-hop head you know 90s raps my era you know. drum & bass was a big influence growing up you know punk music you know,  The Clash Sex Pistols  yeah just you know I used to go to festivals with my mum and shit you know see all these bands live and I you know get lost in the crowd did my own thing it was wild days the eighties .
KK: mmm mad. 
S: it was was mad yeah, I don't think you know a lot of it wouldn't happen now no you probably kidnapped and taken to Portugal or something, I don’t know.
KK: You sound rounded man you sound like the color that’s exactly what I grew up on.
Pretty much like metal rock yeah you know I mean now I’m getting into a little bit of hardcore just cos I’ve been around at our studios you know a bit hardcore, not gonna lie you do like my Slipknot you know yeah yeah if you know big influence on me.
KK: yeah yeah, I know you're saying.
S: they you know opened my ears up and thought you.
KK: yeah, I've got a kind of got Internet napalm death and Cannibal Corpse and things I fuck with that yeah.
S: I can't like these nuts you know in Russia they what are they called from Moscow death brigades.
KK: Moscow death Brigade her are they any good.
S: yeah, they nice, I dunno I think they are Russian writers singing, hardcore.
KKL fuck, I’m gonna check this out.
S: there quite hardcore.
KK: Moscow death Brigade.
S: Them guys are sick. They on Instagram and that. I don’t know him personally, but you know that’s what I'm listening to it the minute.
KK: Bro, that's fire I need some of that in my life.
S: yeah, they heavy man 
KK: fucking great. when I think of in the nineties with graff I said this to Zonk actually it’s an affliction of like a style that is is is really like it runs in tune with the music genres of the time you know I mean like two-step garage  just come through, you know there’s an adaptation of graff it just kind of fell in sync with what was cool.
S: when I was growing up in the 90s it was more drum n bass orientated all my generation of drum n bass heads you know I mean me touch swag you know a plug you know we was all drum n bass heads you know I mean always always hit him turn fucking turn you know he was at every rave I ever went to I think.
KK: really I.
S:  big up turn he is fucking everywhere. yeah and he can march through a crowd mate, get him at a rave. If you need to get from one arena to another just get be hing him, he’s the man.
KK: carpet cut his wat thorough like he don’t give a fuck. Oh, ya I do love that era and the soundtrack to that drum n bass era.
S: skibadee
KK:  he’s been on here. He’s’ been on here.
S: Yeah, I head yeah. Sheba. Andy c.  He’s a Donny.
KK: the don dada. We got guests in the house by the way he’s not saying his name but he’s in the house. 
S: what you doing mate, making the tea?
KK: my boy.
S:  put the kettle on Rosie.
KK: get one for us, as well. Go on.
S: I’m alright I got a coronavirus.
KK: and he's on the corona virus.
S: yeah, I’m on the corona virus and the weed Bruv. 
KK:  oh yeah listen.
S: by the way you make a big weed smoke off you want to send me any weed, send some weed.
KK: hey will do tattoo for weed.
S: weed oh yeah, I'll trade you know I mean don’t mind trading if you've got a good trade for me then I'll trade you know it’s not about money you know.
KK: that's cold you I know, I like that.
S: when money's gonna be obsolete you know  I can still occur still do business you know yeah you know if I ever go to prison, I hope  I don't but if I ever did I'd be all right you know I've got a trade.
KK: you know how-to sustain.
S: yeah yeah, I'm self-sufficient
KK: that's an interesting theory.
S: that's another reason why I got into tattooing to be self-sufficient they want to rely on no one you know I mean all are myself you know a self-sufficient.
KK: yeah, yeah, you’re independent. you know like artistry. you've got to find ways of living.
S: well you notice there's painters out there that can paint amazing paintings and not selling them for 60 quid you know I mean.
KK: that’s the hustle.
S: That’s the the hustle you know but I don’t know. I always get a bit more.
KK: They do don’t they. What’s the average price on that?
S: It can vary yeah yeah 50 to 100 really minimum, yeah, yeah. For a minimum you know. I work in a walk-in shop. I like doing walk-ins cos that's what you mean to most people and that's when you get upon the most people as well it's not all about lettering for me it's all about it’s about tattooing it doesn't matter what I'm tattooing you know as long as I’m making the customer happy feel comfortable and having a good experience for them.
KK: I was staggered like recently bear in mind like guys like from  I am I'm a fan first right and and and if I was to ever go graffiti right you know be a novice at first I was surprised to hear the price an average price of a piece that graffiti artists should pay to you know the cans.
S: yeah you know.
KK: It’s crazy money.
S: it's mad moneyman and right you know awkward habits smoke weed I drink Coronas you know I ain't got money to buy paint. I need a sponsor.
KK: I mean I'm this particular writer who I'm talking about you know he was like you know that piece there that cost me 40 quid.
S: I've seen writers I spend hundreds of pounds mate and I writers as I say writers but, graffiti artists saying oh why don’t you spend more money on paint, do something better. I don’t wanna do something better, I’ve got three cans. I’ll do what I can with three cans.  I never had any paint me I'll just get off someone else. the Southbank was always a good choice.
KK: yeah, all these stories are coming to light you know.
S: I mean so took a lot of paint from South Bank off of people.
KK: yeah, the great thing about these podcasts behind us the stories and how this DNA of tapestry of London cultures it's like you hear these things I'm like yeah like you guys are like fucking cool as fuck I can’t even imagine you being like that.
S: yeah, like I said with with age comes wisdom you know what I mean. you've gotta know how to carry yourself as you get older. yeah, I'm an old man nearly you know I mean I mean my middle ages now you know I'm in this you know you don't go carry yourself a bit correct in you.
KK: yeah yeah yeah yeah is that an advisory thing from you it or do you…
S: I dunno I do just grow up in it you know I'll just have to carry yourself the way you carry yourself you know handle things the way you handle it.
KK: hmm but there is change.
S: Of course, there is.  know if things are in cycles always go back cycle, cycle, cycle yeah know people don't learn from mistakes always you can go from and tell someone but they all can go from they if they learn them self some people don't ever learn some people just keep doing the same mistakes over and over again.
KK: have you got friends that still in the game yeah, any stay they just give a say to like.
S: yeah yeah, I'm always preaching to my pass forever to them telling them to saw that I thought fix up.
KK: but you’re a good example.
S: you don't have to be me cos I you know I've done all the shit that I’ve done you know I just do you want to be doing it for a while you want to be thirty still shoplifting you know even 40shoplifting you know.
KK: that's an addictive quality to it. 
S: yeah, it’s got an addictive, but it's not it's not a career move is it. it's not a job it's not something that you can you know you know bring to the table.
KK: life's too short.
S: it's nice to have in the backburner but it's nothing you could bring to the table you know it's that you know a writer a real graffiti writer will survive a nuclear attack from anyone because we go underground just survive somehow you know. I mean we'll be under there would be doing nothing community boom boom boom we’ll survive you know I mean we'll be out doing missions is our way of life you know it mean so we’ll be out doing missions to get our food,
KK: Dude honestly that's a good point I think there is nothing that intimidates the system I think they know full well that you you're clever.
S: you can’t rule us that's what they don't like. You can’t rule graffiti writers, you can rule graffiti artist, but you can’t rule graffiti writers.  you know there’s no rules there is no rules you know I mean you know I thought people say oh why did you do it up over that piece you know because we can innit.
KK: no rules. 
S: that’s what it is.
KK: it is in a game with no scruples.
S: exactly you know it's lawless, there’s no laws to it you know who's gonna you know oh you went over that. that’s funny. I do like a bit of graffiti beef. I like a bit of beef. 
KK: what’s it's the biggest beef you've had?
S: Probably when I started with DDS. That was probably the biggest beef to get lined everywhere everywhere my tags wouldn't survive 5 minutes. Kept at it mate. Kept at it. Kept at it. I was doing my own thing, out there my own shit with people that weren't even writing and you know I mean I was still at it, at it you know out there areas you know in in you know I’d be up my you know I mean I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet but I was up with tag you know especially on the streets of London I mean you'd see me in a you know the  estate and then you’d see me on the poshest road.
KK: what was that the dynamic you would.
S: just hit everywhere I mean I met example once when he was uh yeah you had a a tag writes outside my house. I was like yeah. Yeah that was me.
KK: Hold tight.
S: I met him at a premier of ill manors.
KK: Oh, went to that. I was in it.
S: was you?
KK: yeah, I was doing the beatbox thing.
S: yeah. I used to go to premiers back then, 
KK: with the champagne.
S: yeah there was a lot of champagne. Remy Martin. I was thinking back to Richard Desmond's birthday party sorry a lot of people won't know.
KK: who’s that. 
S: he’s the guy who owns channel 5 in OK Magazine and you know he’s a big fish.
KK: Is he so where did he come into this conversation.
S: that’s another story, I don’t want to go into it. that was another life yeah yeah, I'm in a new life now.
KK: life is full of mini lives.
S: yeah, I've done loads of different shit it's sick.
KK: yeah dude you have to go through it experience of life you've got only well it's been a pleasure fucking having you know man I swear to goodness thank you so much for passing through.
S: that’s alight pal.
KK: I mean we keep in its dynamics in here strictly for the vandalism squads inside the place with man that Spyar.
S: thank you very much as well. I want to shout out cider as well cos he’ll be pissed if I don’t.
KK: big shout out to sham as well. My dog.
S: BTB fam.
KK: there it is. inside your head ladies and gentlemen, the killa Kela podcast live in effect again you stay lucky don't forget to share it shout graffiti king's peace.