This weeks podcast we’re opening doors to a rare and open chat with a man on the inside of the music industry and extremely passionate about the label he represents; Co-Head A&R of Island Records - my boy, Dan Jones. We get into the hood and deep into the engine of A&Ring and it’s core principles. Talking where an artist’s journey begins, how a record label works, what A&R’s search for in new music, and how they support the production of a record alongside the artists and the label. But it’s deeper than this; there’s also timing, personalities, high risks and way more. This is Dan Jones Podcast
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KILLA KELA
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KILLA KELA: Ladies and gentlemen coming to live central London or central as you should be. This is the Killa Kela podcast on duty, it's that time again subscribe, share, tell a friend to tell a friend do not sleep on that I repeat, do not sleep on that repeat. Okay shout out to Graffiti Kings holding it down and yeah going-over different this week and I say different I mean for the better because this man he's part of a fraternity that aims to change music for better. Part of a long generation of you know reps label types this man he's fucking he's on the ball and he does it and he does it well and he's a friend of mine he goes by the name of Dan Jones. How’s it going brother?
DAN JONES: I’m good, I’m good.
KK: Your first podcast.
DAN JONES: this is my first podcast yeah yeah yeah.
KK: A&R island records.
DAN: Indeed, yeah yeah yeah.
KK: For those you don't know what A&R, which I’m is pretty sure you will do we're gonna get in some depths here okay we’re gonna go into some walks which would probably haven't even brought up in previous shows which I’m dead excited about.
DAN: oh good.
KK: yeah, we often see each other mostly over a drink at a bar what’s crowbar that was a last one wasn’t its
DAN: crowbar was the last one. Yeah, I love it in their mate. amazing not many of you come from that world it's like heavy rock metal, just that is a solid G bucket. the people in there know their metal.
KK: Yeah, they fucking do. and you know what as well like you say this that era it's an era isn't a music it’s an it's a style which leans towards that live venuesque, dive bar.
DAN: remember when 2003-4 when I was doing PR for My Chemical Romance and they were playing at the LA2 - they underneath the Astoria and death from above1979 having a little gig there and like we go that’s a venue as well but back in the day that yeah it was and like I remember like the press had come house it was with Susie Ember and before she’s at Polydor now but she was doing it and we managed to get Gerard where it’s a kind of as soon as he finished the gig to go into the crow bar and then do a live set in there and I remember like it was mad and they did quite a few Danzig covers they covered like mother by Danzig.
KK: Stop it!
DAN: Yeah, but in its mad cos I was got back there now let's see where my chemical romance I'm Just, those moments were before social media they say that happened there was so many My Chem fans have got pass and just be like.
KK: don't even think about it. Just being in a place of like.
DAN: yeah, they don't blink and it's like that that went down it was just it was the moment.
KK: yeah that’s mad isn’t it. you you mentioned it using to you know that genre the metal the rockier, edgier stuff in your bro where'd it'll begin. What it'll begin for you.
DAN: it all began for me as a press assistant at Warner brother records and when I mean press assistant this is before social media like I was really the guy in there who you literally yet stacks and stacks of press that would come in over the weekend that would have ran on Green Day, the Chili Peppers, Madonna REM that was kind of like they were the acts that I hold you're not born as a time.
KK: what dates are we talking about here?
DAN: I started in August 2003 just when I started yeah so, we're talking Chili Peppers are just released by the way.
KK: Sugababes for kind of surfacing in the pop world.
DAN: Yeah, yeah they were they were there on then there were they will via London record when I joined it was WEA London records and then mid with during my I was at Warner's between 2003 and 2008 and June in that period it went from WEA London to Warners brotherrecords I could change I think it’s when court-martial came in and he brought in Muse, Garbage ash and they kind of they were part of infectious and them all became frontline UK repertoire so it kind of all merged then and that’s when green day American Idiot came out we had Deftones on the label streets on the label like Original Pirate material came out.
KK: was that London records?
DAN: that was under six seven nine.
KK: six seven nine.
DAN: so that flowed that was one of the labels that flowed through with London Warner's I've always been lucky or gravitated towards those places that have one eye on culture and one eye on Commerce and I guess as a character I’m like that as well so I don't know whether or not that's a marriage of convenience or whether or not it's just one of those magnetism things that you just kind of end up flowing like down that river.
KK: yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right well it starts as the integrity of what your doing I've always been that kind of character that likes music with balls I like things that really stands for something. Anthrax Public Enemy when those guys came together and did it you know fucking eleven-year-old me lost my shit. the whole Idea.
DAN: 100 percent. and it’s crazy because I remember being at Warner’s at the time. We had gallows at the time and it was a lot of people excited about Gallows and they did a little cover with lethal bizzle at the time, during the first wave of grime and it's like I remember of that time period everyone, enemy were mad for them Krang were mad for them and it was oh my god this is the first time it's happened and in my head I was thinking Public Enemy, anthrax are such thing as a judgement night sounds I thinking of all these.
KK: Onyx and oh my god what was the name of it.
DAN: there's so many people in this world sounds like Pearl Jam there was all kinds of weird meshes of music and the
KK: biohazard.
DAN: yeah there was a spawn soundtrack afterwards which kind of a Tom Morello fusion with the prodigy.
KK: crazy shit that was crazy.
KK: crazy shit that was crazy.
DAN: I'm always my mind is blown how generations and I don't mean like long this can be like three years then another three years, they can quickly forget that sort of frequency, they’re tumbling through the Heritage they’re come from they don't know the history of it. Ya know for me like I’m quite encyclopedia with that stuf,f I’m like whoa like just like back where you came from and this feels raw it's new and it's a continuation of it but it it comes from a long line or that happening before.
KK: yeah like you say the I mean grime I think like you say at that time grime was really quite one they knew its lane its maybe maybe that is what contributes at people’s thoughts like that about it being a unique new selling thing but collaboratively surely like artists must get some sort of pleasure out of researching back and I don't know fashion has its way of coming around doesn’t it you know.
DAN: it's a hundred percent cyclical.
KK: if you if you actually wait for the train to pass again you, you’ll catch all the details and how things often play out, don’t ya.
DAN: yeah, its cyclical but um.
KK: Cyclical that’s the word see that’s why I bring people on for.
DAN: I think you need to reverse and have a look you don't need to live in the past but you definitely need to be able to kind of swing back, swing back to because there's a lot of positives there’s a lot of great things to learn and some of the negatives are also great from learning. some like my favorite Beastie Boy lyric is by MCA God rest his soul and its track five on their fifth studio album, hello nasty a tune called just the test and he in he says as long as I learn I'll make mistakes. now always love that line when I heard it I was like wow that's such line because like we're all human we all make mistakes but as long as you’re trying to evolve into a different plane or a different sort of, use that in a positive way going forward then keep keep doing that you know I mean. if you’re just doing the same shit over and over its like c’mon man this aint good but like if your move if you’re using that to move forward in a creative sense then tap into that it’s not a negative because I always see myself as a student like there are certain people, I'm going to come who through periods of time for whatever reason will be like I've been in a while I’ll take my time to speak to people and listen to them and try and help them on the journey if they need any help or whatever but for me I'm always still a student I think whenever I pass away a hopeful it'd be a long time like else on the day that I die alone learn something just still be learning like dude like however all you are just like us to us which the crammed in don't mean I’ve still want to learn from the craft.
KK: in those early days when you like you were saying I guess was well you, were you more under, you are under the arm of a lot of other A&R's when you first started?
DAN: I'd, to be fair started in the press department said I never wanted to be an A&R now it was as a guy called Kenny McGough it to be fair the first guy who just took two two guys who believed that I had what it took to be in A&R one of them was Dan Keeling he’s the guy who signed Coldplay hey he was he was at Parlophone then he went to Ireland another guy was Paul Brown who was the guy who side Gnarls Barkley and pendulum and ball for them were like your energy the way you see music the way like you're constantly like.
KK: the integrity that you held just like.
DAN: they're just like the questions I was asking and like the I would just come in up and hand it like some people are quite guarded with our information cos they're like oh I wanna be the person who's doing this so it's for me I was like I'll always find it I'll always have an opinion on ours overview so for me like it's not like I've got one idea they come on see coming up with ideas some like I may as well share them because I might not know what to do with all my ideas but.
KK: so it was an intentional thing on your part or was it just a pure interest that you'd yeah, you give off that energy and and you know the people around you like oh you should try this you should do this this could be your vocation.
DAN: I just think like if I’m with the right people they get the right version of me and I think that’s part of life. I think if you're with people who understand you and for me as a teenager it was always a quest of being understood and it's it's funny because in the industry that's there were lots of different versions of me though you certain people don't know me really well go I know it means a bit of laugh that northern dude, blah blah blah and then there'll be other people who go no no no I know that dude he’s deep. he's not one dimension, he's cerebral, he thinks about things like he's like he’s always and not me but it depends what journeys they've been through with me or whether or not they know like characters like me or he's like one of them he’s one of those characters do you know what I mean. That all depends on how people read you don’t mean them I get it when it's just it happens the same when people try and give you a sort of look-alike, with you I think you look like this and then someone else go I think you look like this and it's miles apart like what that always makes me think because I don’t really listen to any of it I just kind of giggle at it all but I'm just like what do people see what's been its perception.
DAN: I just think like if I’m with the right people they get the right version of me and I think that’s part of life. I think if you're with people who understand you and for me as a teenager it was always a quest of being understood and it's it's funny because in the industry that's there were lots of different versions of me though you certain people don't know me really well go I know it means a bit of laugh that northern dude, blah blah blah and then there'll be other people who go no no no I know that dude he’s deep. he's not one dimension, he's cerebral, he thinks about things like he's like he’s always and not me but it depends what journeys they've been through with me or whether or not they know like characters like me or he's like one of them he’s one of those characters do you know what I mean. That all depends on how people read you don’t mean them I get it when it's just it happens the same when people try and give you a sort of look-alike, with you I think you look like this and then someone else go I think you look like this and it's miles apart like what that always makes me think because I don’t really listen to any of it I just kind of giggle at it all but I'm just like what do people see what's been its perception.
KK: do you think it's people’s perceptions that based on the things that they've lived that clearly about things that they've lived through and then you suddenly sharpen their lives and you give value on a certain level that you probably wouldn't have given value to another person but those people have come in at a time where they either need you they associate you with something else that makes them turn you to look alike or oh he's deep because he told me about sound so when I needed it most you know I mean I mean I think it's all about the you know it’s the person that you come.
DAN: it's the biggest compliment. I'll be getting the biggest compliments for me in the industry is not getting invite to the award shows some of them are cool some of them are just the way they are.
KK: calculated.
DAN: it's it's not that. so the biggest rewards for me when I that I took was when I remember like when you’re young you kind of you can feel snubbed at certain things you want to be involved because you feel like, you’ve got a lot of give but you're not senior you enough to be invited to certain meetings and you think aw I could kill it in that meeting but when asked the the bits that I take from it is like when like surge from Kassabian when I work with them like I might not be invited to certain things but before the album came out it will start with him texting me, he'd be like it's coming, you aint ready for it, get ready for it and therefore you know about any changes number all the time so sometimes like who's this? Aww its surge do you know what I mean but I know what's happening with those texts do you know what I mean. I’ll eventually get to hear it and an or for a fact that it doesn’t matter how often we talk, how frequent it is like I know he's waiting for my opinion on the record and he wants my opinion on the record do you know what I mean, like Plan B would be the same with things I remember like he would ask me things and it would be like this guy is not gonna bullshit me, if this guy doesn’t like it why doesn't he fucking like it. show me them, for me like that was the greatest compliment in the world like when I signed Kano there was a few people trying to sign him around the time of just before made in the manor and plan being me we're trying to do it we helped make a few songs on that record and I couldn't do it in the spot where I was at and then it moves and I did it somewhere else but the reason why I ended up doing it rich and Kane were just like you always there, you were there for the right reasons, it was before it's kind of a second way of a grime do you know what I mean we just say you're an amazing poet you were poet nor different Alex turner.
KK: Diction is so good.
DAN: ya know just to put you just the poet , do you know what I mean, it's not about being an MC even though I think he’s he’s the best MC I'm like yeah you kept on it for me it's like he's a poet he's got a narrative he knows how-to tell a story do you know what I mean like Eddie Murphy Dave Chappelle Ricky Gervais Russell Brand like they're all observational psychologists and to me Kano's the same.
KK: you mean flex in the manor.
DAN: he's you don't think they're all kind of conceptual records that don't really warrant a chart position because they're just there to be tapped into whenever you need to tap into just to go what was going on in 2019 I was listening to Kano, that what's going on but it must have been going on between 2016 to 2019 twhat was going on before, do you know what I mean. I always liked him because he hasn't ever compromised he's sound for commerce he’s just told his journey and because he's a good storyteller people wanna people will turn up for the journey.
KK: its evergreen as well whenever you hear a story of felt like Nas Illmatic it’s like you still put it on and if ya it resonates of it not just an era because it doesn't really change out there’s now you're saying about the 2016 the 2019 thing okay yeah but this still has this has relevance.
DAN: and it's like I listen to Ice Cube death certificate and to me.
KK: major album.
DAN: yeah that record for me was just like like you can read a book on the history of the troubles in LA at that time but if you're not into reading and I love reading but if you're not into it, it’s you can put on death certificate by ice cube because it's yeah it's there it’s there, do you know what I mean it's an it's like alike an audiobook don't mean just put on death certificate. I might listen to it tonight.
KK: right yeah there's a couple of albums I mean like hell and this is like this is a very broad subject we’re getting into but you know in terms of hits and good albums strong albums things that take it all the way and we did speak about it before you know Crossroad where Red Hot Chili Peppers what defines a classic to an A&R's ear what defines you know what what makes all the components work for you.
DAN: um it’s difficult because for me what I think is a perfect record might not be a perfect record and I'll qualify that like if someone said to me during a period you a music publisher what was the favorite song that you you were involved in and now we don't I don't listen to it that often but when I hear it I just think wow what moment it’s a song by Paolo Nutini’s called iron sky and it's the first song and might be the only song that actually has sign-off from Charlie Chaplin’s estate because they used an element of what he was about and I signed Paolo Nutini’s guitarist Dave nelson and Dave nelson co-wrote the song with Paolo and I remember that time Adele did she tweeted it and she was the tweet you they're done they just well she’s on insta, I don't follow on Instagram but like she tweeted it and she was like wow this is like wow like checking out and then that performer and it was his performance at abbey road of that song like you could play about now anyone whoever's listening and watching Paolo Nutini iron sky watch him.
KK: Paolo Nutini.
DAN: that song like like and I’m left with some heavy stuff but like Paolo Nutini iron sky tell me tell me in the delivery of that song at Abbey road that he isn't in that moment he’s lost he's not even there he's not even in that moment that guy he’s shredding like he's he's like a conduit for a message and that song didn’t really connect but for me that's a perfect moment, I mean that's a true moment you that song - this is Al Green this is for me it was channeling like a whole lineage of just soul and blues and like wow said this is big join me, new terms of commercial success I mean I've had all sorts of success from all kind of different range of artists like I remember when I signed tiao Cruz is publishing at the time I haven't really spent that much time with Taio but I knew Jimmy Ben's his manager we had a club night together in Notting Hill, he told me that the deal was available and then I just joined EMI Music Publishing and a lot of the conversations we need more top-line writers and taio had ears to the ground that time. Johnny knew in darkest B's had signed him with Island records where I am now coincidentally you know obviously dark has had put him in with a lot of people because he was working with Tinchy Stryder he was in with. McFly. All island artists so obviously darkest must have definitely been pulling the strings there and connecting all of that for his artist but knowing that he's a good top line writer. yeah so for me I looked at that thought why wouldn't it's not really my world but I appreciate this guy's got an ear and an eye for the craft of writing the top line and writing a catchy hookey topline so like he was my first big ever signin.g I didn't really spend that much time with him but that for me was looking around seeing what opportunities are there but knowing that Jamie who was a friend of mine at the time who manages pulled all my faith and he manages and he's just really well for himself he he brought that opportunity to me. and I having sat thought the A&R meeting listening what top line right and what what is the topline like what is it they're after and just listening and listening and then when I heard time it's not my vibe but it feels that this is an EMI Music Publishing’s sign so I did my duty and I did the deal in to be fair tiao he went on to write a couple of big songs with David Guetta just before EDM really exploded, songs became massive copyrights ones little bad girl with Ludacris and the other one without you with usher he was so they became massive copyright so then you can lookalike a bit of a genius like whoa you’ve got this vision was different singer-songwriter of the which is a big deal in publishing two years in the row, but obviously I signed him so like but the coach of what it was about wasn’t really me but in terms of what I had to do in a job like I was a at at the time there’s no better kind of top line writer, yeah. then him do you know what I mean he can put himself in any situation and he'll come out with as long so for me like the general public wanted those sort of songs it's not what I wanted as I've just said with Paolo .l like some of the things I gravitate towards and like as a Moment in time because like I'm not the biggest Paolo Nutini fan but that for me there’s a song to be proud of isn't like oh like that's and that's a song right that’s an artist that I signed who brought that moment I can be proud of that moment that’s something that was my musical journey is proud of that little moment it doesn’t really connect with that many people but people who know that song will know like a song that's a song that is a song do you know what I mean that's not like a commercial pop moment that I challenge people to write one of them.
KK: how often do you find those you know the golden nuggets when they arriving like you say they’re loaded with energy and you can just feel the heart how often a more broader question is how often do you receive that like so if you receive a bunch of shit a month how much of it is gold how much of it is that.
DAN: there's a lot in terms of creativity like like gold is in five percent out of a 100, 5 percent of in terms of you’re dealing with like Rob Swire from pendulum and knife party for me it's one of those five percenters.
KK: always guaranteed.
DAN: like Illmatic creative innovator he’s not copycat he’s just tuned.
KK: he's a study he's a study.
DAN: he’s tuned to a different channel what he's creating like that whole scene for EDM for me like what he what Rob why did was there was a lot of other people around at the same time who I feel were more PR able they were more sociable they were more in the circles and saw what he was doing and did their version of it and made a lot more commercial success for me.\
KK: I'll go with that.
DAN: that drop mean bought they were all drinking from from his I went and I was in that scene quite a lot of sign nearer I wish she did pendulum I did knife party and then a lot of people would bring him it me stuff and I was it I don’t really need it because I've got I’ve got.
KK: you got a crème.
DAN: I've got that yeah I don't need this.
KK: big up graph as well.
DAN: yeah, their geniuses, like for me I always like joe walked who was a very good friend of mine who managed them and manage his chase and status so I'll let went on to sign like yeah they like he he knew it and he himself is like everyone who’s worked with joe he’s like he's a manager and like he's he's been a bit of a force with like ME and like he’s amazing, he's getting better but it's as low process with that illness like he’s a force and I missed that force because as a management force he was an intellect it was smart it was clever he put the he draw fear through a label, you had to deliver for Joe and I think there's a lot of there's a lot of having great management so important having a manager you can drive fear through a record label so they make the record label deliver on behalf of the artist that is that's so important .
KK: so what's the story, that’s such an interesting point because some people, some people command a red-carpet others are just like well they’re just passing through, yeah we'll pass through your office and give you a wave for kind of thing it’s different one like you say there is a real you know iron fist coming through the fuckin place what's that what's that feeling within the office what's it feel like.
DAN: you want to deliver like everything wants to be successful like you not what I where I'm at now island records and this isn’t a A&R thing it’s just where I am it's what, it's why I decided to go there like it's a very it's got the balance right it's an amazing place as duty of care for the staff for the artists. it’s everyone gets every point there's not like like I'm one of the older characters there do you know what I mean.
KK: he's a young boy as well.
DAN: yeah it’s made me thinking that but like like everyone’s aware were the points of reference everyone gets it, do you know what I mean if a videos played everyone gets a points everyone gets the points of references everyone knows the lineage everything goes I get it.
KK: they're just on it.
DAN: yeah, I get where that comes from it’s kind of like like if someone's looking in a mood board people get it people ooh I get it it's Wes Anderson meets xyz and it's like that's just there.
KK: does the lineage just that diminish your shrink in with every genre and every artist that that comes in and tries to breathe mold like is it harder for you as an A&R or a marketeer for that matter to not pigeonhole but to try and find the space within a person's record collection that is like yeah that fits there does it get harder.
DAN: do…so what was the question?
KK: so if you've if you've got like a team and they see an artist come along and the first thing they're thinking is okay where they've got this shit sorted out but just in terms of marketability and A&Ring how did we fit it into because the genres they're changing they’re constantly moving their plates and like sometimes the genres are so you know overnight aren't they you’ve just got to try and find that place in a person's record collection how how tough is it to find that that place in the market you know in A&R sense for an artist.
DAN: there's definitely what what what's a realism is that you get there's windows of opportunity as you said and you can sign something, I'll try and sign things at the beginning of that window and then try and find their way to market right or wrongly have been in places before like oh it’s another artist development thing, it’s another artist development thing we need that instant do you know what I mean and I’ve had some instant things that Taio Cruz was like the Greatest instant win ever like all the songs he wrote would just instant and they went out yeah yeah but then I've had longer bids. I Rmember saying this guy called Bruno major amazing talent unbelievable, I don't work him with with him now but like I have an affinity with him I check in with him and like he's such a purist he saw, he’s a prodigy he's unbelievable he's a polymath he's aware of everything so talent his brothers with Doc who's in London grammar like they're unbelievable if you've got their flight in Camden it’s just this mad creative hub there's an energy there and it's like he’s he's one of those artists that is on a journey and he's doing it but I don’t think you can put major label metrics on whether or not he has broken, is breaking, is a commercial success because he's just creating art all the time and there's like it must be difficult to from an artist point of view to be in a system where you’re suddenly in this game where you've got to have this commercial success and it’s like snakes and ladders whereas if you’re in a situation where and there are singing like this says signings where and it depends on how much you sign for what the financial pressure is.
KK: and the back end is crazy as well.
DAN: right, this is a reasonable deal done and there's no financial pressure from deal it can be like right this is a real artist development deal we'll get there when we do we'll spend accordingly.
KK: Is that a lot of expectations from the deal from the artist.
DAN: if there’s a heavy financial deal there’ll be an expectation on it sometimes some of those deals are done because they're so immediate so everyone knows it's a win or it's already happening, when I joined a lot of the deals when I started in 2003 a lot of the deals were all development deals and then now more sauce they never liked Tik-Tok can blow up a song you kind of get in America, a lot tik to,k tik tok will blow up a song, we’ll start flying and then the deal will go to astronomical figures but it’s happening where you're playing it there so you're basically you’re just amplifying what's happening we’re gonna come in we're gonna offer this money then we're gonna amplify and we’ll see what happens so with those like even though it's a risk to pay a lot of money people, it's a calculated risk because there’s already revenue coming in so in that sense like's so people go oh my god so and so I remember like when I was younger like A&R's were always obsessed with all the people paid for the deal and I would always say I couldn't care less what people think appeared for a dea.l and I believed in it, so I could play ten pence to sign someone we can have a would or 50million pounds which again I never wouldn’t, it’s irrelevant if I if I believe in it if the people who back of me, believe in it just about what you pay for it is irrelevant and then that to me is art and that’s a you won't find a more honest expression of art it's like how much to want to pay for this Banks. I don’t really like it this how much you want to pay for this Banksy, it's a Banksy, that’s this particular Banksy how much you selling it for this. I might pay a bit more so it's like if you believe it art you like it you you'll pay whatever you want to pay for it if you're solely looking at it for business metrics then that dictates a different fee because you’re like totally what do we think this genre earns what do we think the return on this genre is where is this ice in the genre as this sort of at the bottom in the middle at the top are there the innovators and they're the ones that's what we pay and that’s that's kind of the game some .
KK: do you hear what's going on here you just got knowledge man fucking knowledge. and it takes art in itself like you've gotta be as an A&R there's a calculative decision you have there you know it’s like okay so where's this coming in, I love it but how how do we free up certain things to make this happen or you know what what taking the integrity into account like how do we steer this so it's in a right place so you say no one gets upset about something for the back end or no you know because if it’s a development deal then normally that works in favor for the artist to begin with but then it slowly dawns on the label that they’re you know they may not want to put more energy in because they didn't put so much financing and then that there's the vice versa of that if you put in a lot of money as a label you know there's an expectation from the label that the artist delivers that takes a lot of calculate a lot of moving spinning plates on your part isn't it you know I mean that must be a complete head you must do you must be used to it now but you know I'm saying submission it’s crazy.
DAN: what in the process of when you’re doing a deal?
KK: just making it just being being you're being an A&R and come loads of different variables coming into playing you've got a kind of almost like you’ve just gotta go with the flow and just.
DAN: A&R yeah when I was younger I said the first ten years like I really took things personally I felt the emotion of decisions like I never wanted to guy moody was the guy who brought me into thein our world with Kenny McGough I am, he would always go to me get used to go into bed with at least one person not liking you or the decision you've made today. and I'd was I wont sleep if I'm like that dude, she hates me because of a decision that's out of my hands but I've had to deliver the news they come wanna go is it all right but then over time you realize that night it’s alright for people to be fucked off with you for a month do you know what I mean you let if they fucked off with you for a year because they pissed that you dropped them or you did that they could be pissed off with you forever because they had a trust in you that you were never gonna let them down and now you’re delivering the news that they never thought you were. so you have to you just have to stand by the decision or you just have to or you have to fight against it so you don't make that decision do you know what I mean I remember once there was an axe that um there was an actor I end up signing and this was part of that journey worse that I felt the emotion at the time I'm not gonna lie but like all the time I've learned how to kind of belike I've got a duty of care of the artist that I'm working with just you just got to keep going you’ve got people you can take things personally it's like
KK: artists are sensitives as fuck yeah super sensitive.
DAN: but ya it’s how they get the information there was any there was an act that was signed to us on the publishing side and on the record side and everyone thought they were going to do really well and the record company paid X amount of money the publishers paid x amount of money it did not achieve what everyone wanted it to achieve the record, company renegotiated down so they made a cheaper deal but to stay in business with the moves important for that act and the manager to stay in business the record company to drive the rest of the businesss, we wanted to do the same move on the publishing side say we know the record company negotiated down we have to do the same thing because we've made such a financial loss we can't afford to keep losing money but we believe in the act so we want to staying the ac.t no we need, all the money, we need all the money and also we can't do it we've we've done whatever model we can do we can't do it. anyway as time passes the people in the upper echelons of where I was of working at the time, which is not where I'm working now well like we’ve, we've made this offer it's been out for almost a year why haven't they taken it isn't this offer, can’t stop there's new acts coming through we can't deny the new acts of cause resources and funnels don't mean we gotta keep going so obviously the conversation and then suddenly that we want to set the offer but in that year the person that ran the company was like nothing's going on with this act because how are they suddenly got no no no no and then yeah well take it so why spend any money at all. so we ended up dropping him now when we drop them I went to the manager please can I go and see the act I want to explain I have fought for them I've had this offer on the table for you I've tried to create opportunities we give you back the album you've made I wanna help. yeah just let me speak to them and then I’ll give you the opportunity to speak to them he never came back and when he did it. and then I met this act I remember coming back from a James Bay gig when we were looking at him in St. Stephen’s Church in Shepherds Bushwalk into Bush Hall for some food with Luke Morales and David who who I Was working with the time and the act was walking towards me oh I haven’t seen them so we'll say. hey how is it going all good is everything well how was the second album coming on and they were like good and I was like how was everything else, yeah good no was like who's producing the record what’s going on. the second albums coming on okay and it was just it was like that and at the time I was I and I remember I remember going back afterwards and David and Luke were like that's a bit shit cos we know how much you believed in the act we know how hard you folks we wherein all those meetings we fighting to save them but all they'll know is you fucking.
KK: is that communication point from the management side?
DAN: they’ll be like you let us down and you did that and I was like I did I've never never tell like that act that I mean and then maybe if the act somehow I ever listened to this they'll might work out who they are.
KK: censor reasons we aren't gonna say the name.
DAN: and it was one of them where I was like right everyone's got their own agenda everyone does it but in the end of the other people like there’ll be people who just will just be like what if they didn't come I should live oh yeah but for me going back to the point we were having what the Chili Peppers early wrong you never know when an artist is going to connect with the general public. if anyone can tell you that it's a straight lie nobody knows, you invest in the creative talent and you hope that you can keep investing in for as long as you can as long as you can and because you believe in them and you know at some point they're gonna have that moment where they write that evergreen song which the general public will connect with and that will be what the define line and that's the journey and a lot of people don't know how to have these conversations to kind of get to the crux of what creativity is and where it falls within like a corporate structure.
KK: right was it Geffen sign Guns N'Roses and that whole period was just like year after year it must have been like two years before you've got have you've before Paradise City and sweetheart of mine came about right even back then there's a level of development that you just got and does that come does that come from its not just the music, it's just your fondness for the band and their brand. and the people within it that govern your determination you know if you know someone’s a dick head then you're not gonna you know you're gonna put maybe like yeah it's 60 percent them but their music’s great but if they're nice people and their music’s good and everything’s steering in the right direction does that make a bigger difference.
DAN: I think I’d like to think all all the artists I’ve worked with a lovely creative souls but I think when you're dealing with creativity like it can start off all nice but that you've gotta be real, there’s arguments along the way there’s nowhere you can work in any industry if you’re passionate about what you do. there’ll be a point where decisions have to get made and like when you're dealing with lots of people, you've got lots of opinions who all care just as much as each other, who've all got great taste palates will see different things from different points of references, trying to get to that middle ground and ultimately it’s the artist the artist dictates of the we nobody who works on my side of the business and nothing without artists and creatives, there's no point in us, we don't exist in the doors artists. what you need a label for ultimately is driving the machine to media driving the machine to the people someone's got through. and say this is the best were standing behind the best everyone, check out this and that’s what is needed but ultimately the artists will create their own art there are periods in time where if you want to stagger it to have maximum gain there is a point when you like hold that song back and don't release it now and release it later on well you've got a bigger audience, to do that song justice because if you release it early and it gets lost and then you lose traction early on and it does ignite again. I've seen it across the board not just with people I've worked with book countless artists I haven’t worked with it went too early and like there is a pattern to it and that's why I go back and check it, because there is a pattern on certain bands or acts or DJs just aren't ready for the machine for the Beast of what the music industry is. I mean if you if you read motley crue the dirt there's a bit in all the craziness of that book there’s actually a kind of guide to corporate structure in that book when they’re talking about the wheel and being the cog when you can't get off the wheel once that wheels turn in you can’t get off, there’s no way off and obviously I've watched the Avicii documentary and one wonderful wonderful talent. he was I think that I think everyone should watch that and see what what it what it is when you join because it’s bigger than music once you join the world of entertainment and mass media and constant scrutiny and constant pressure to kind of deliver and ultra-competitiveness within your other peers because some people live for competition, wanna win like certain people are kind of I can imagine. I can't imagine what it must be like being a football manager like how do they deal with that .because like one day, they win the next day they lose they lose the next games act like and then no that's the pattern but and obviously look they know that step happened but the point is is some people live for that. some people look that that's what that that’s what they are as an entity and other people just true beautiful creatives who just have a gift and they they haven't thought about the other stuff, they’re just couldn't I'm. I'm goof with the talent I’ve inherited it's in the genes or that I'm channeling and then this other stuff comes along.
KK: yeah from an artist’s point of view you mean from an artist’s point of view.
DAN: yeah, there will be artists.
KK: look Liam Gallagher I think Liam Gallagher holds that star hey there's a charm about him I don't think for a second he thinks too too far into the mechanics of the back, the back end. he’s just kind of like he embodies that you know meaning that's what he is you know I mean he's that kind of guy.
DAN: he's a purist but the one thing I'd say about Liam is, he's I look at the campaign’s that that Warner Brothers have done on the last two and they’re great and what's great about them is Liam’s a hundred percent engaged and they’re like I don't know cos I'm not involved but it doesn't look like he's never missed a promo opportunity.
KK: mmm,I agree.
DAN: to sell his new music yeah yeah and he's not and that’s part of it like even though Liam is like an absolute musical don and he definitely had a huge imprint I was a teenager when oasis came out and I was in a metal in hip hop here and it was the Verve that kind of got me Richard as croft from the verve asked from the verve that got me into that but by the time be here now came out which a lot of pure where’s his fans a lot I liked Definitely Maybe but BENL was the album that won me over because for me the first two records I was like the song writing is great noel Gallagher sits alongside Paul McCartney John Lennon but the second album for me just felt a bit more psychedelic and a bit more with the Sonics that I was into and when I first heard you know what I mean I was I kind of know what's gonna it's gonna sound like a pop record and when it came out this is really elongated froggy drawn out like kind of tune I was like YO!.
KK: yeah, I know what you mean.
DAN: like fade you know which is track 7 on that record as Johnny Depp playing slide guitar and that that's a proper rock jam that tune you know.
KK: that’s ‘crazy is that a fact?
DAN: Johnny Depp plays slide guitar on that son. Yeah, yeah and it’s like that that tune is like it's just a vibe do you know what I mean it's not like I'm oh check out this, like it's no one, it's not ,it’s just a vibe but that it's a groove and they sometimes had this conversation with some recently is it the way DSPs are now you've got to get into the song straight where if people aren't hooked in.
KK: DSP what's that?
DAN: Amazon Spotify
KK: gotcha.
DAN: yes like digital service providers all of those all of those peeps they instant everything since an instant instant if you I’ll take some of these like I'm better like everything is instant now and it's like what’s happening so that could Pink Floyd exists now?
KK: that's what I'm thinking. Could bowie? Radiohead.
DAN: I mean this here that first first song once on Pearl Jam10 like it takes about two minutes or a minute half to get started swirling kind of ethereal big tunes yeah and then it kicks in but you couldn't have that now do you know what I mean, and fading out to me by oasis that is a groove, it's a jam ,it’s just a riff that just keeps it just keeps riffing out and it's just like it’s not like an oasis classic, it's not like a snappy three-and-a-half minute, hold a melody it's just a vibe and for me that’s what drew me into this was it Oh! they’ve got this other side, I know they can write nice contemporary rock songs but they've got an edge and they’ve always had that.
KK: you need those tunes
DAN: Columbia they always said that's supersonic those are three songs off off Definitely Maybe that I connected to and that I was into metal and rock at the time I connected to and on what's the story Morning Glory, its Morning Glory I like it.
KK: Riffs.
DAN: you don't just the energy, the energy for me it if I was to connect with any Oasis songs that I've got a bit of my energy on them their the tunes I roll with it and I was and I can't stand roll with it no I don't like that song.
KK: I’m a big rock and roll star I like that tune.
DAN: it’s a tune, it’s got swag, cigarettes and alcohol gots swag to but for me the groove is super sick me it’s just like had this hypnotic groove like the psychedelic of cool psychedelic of psychedelics of Columbia wasn’t just it had a thing but yeah like roll with it I was like I don’t I’m not having this al all.
KK: oh we're talking about song surpassed like decades and that ultimately is the the biggest result admission I guess for A&R I you know I’m talking about Red Hot Chili Peppers and thinking like you're saying earlier and thinking about to like with that person actually be making money who signed you know who sign fucking Red Hot Chili Peppers probably not but then doesn’t doesn’t the Heritage in the and the the longevity of it that makes up for that doesn’t it what do you think.
DAN: I mean yeah it's goings back to what so that you never know when you're going to your gonna make it and I guess with Chili Peppers like when they're originally signed they had three or four albums where you could tell there were fans of Parliament and Funkadelic and I remember chatting Johnny cigarettes who at the time like if you win if any act wins an enemy award the enemy award is that yeah and like it's his hand doing.
KK: no way
DAN: Johnny cigarettes a journalist and he he was married to Phoebe Sinclair who's Red Hot Chili Peppers PR so when I joined Warner Brothers I got to meet him through that and I remember having a chat with him and he said to me at the time when if you were wound back when Chili Peppers released their first album their second album and if you reweing back to when Green Day released Dookie and if you told me because literally Red hot Chili Peppers were playing a couple of dates at Hyde Park and Green Day American Idiot was was taking off I was at Warner’s at the time if you were to tell me that in the future these two bands will do me the biggest musical exports out of America every single journalist would just cry laughing do you know what I mean. it's like the evil l like it's music sometimes that you live in this complete surreal world well I know just like what but from a&R point of view you've gotta go in 25years time this person's gonna be selling out Wembley Arena you've got to know that now and like all the decision where you're making your thinking you’re thinking now but you're thinking 25, 10 years you’re thinking legacy you're thinking are they going to evolve it's something gonna happen in their life that will influence them to write that or when that happens is that going to be the critical mark for them to go yo in its that’s the challenge that's the challenge.
KK: I remember like Snoop Dogg when he first came out you know there was the whole I think he did a DVD boxset something a murder was the case and I mean.
DAN: yeah, I’ve still got DVDs.
KK: star newspaper said get this bastard out you know because he came to the you know tried to come over and do some shows and they they you know the country wasn't having it god dammit but then as an A&R if you were in those shoes and you were trying to forecast this you I mean nothing is better than that kind of sensation right for a marketing point of view but um yeah you meet these people that you sign or people sign, do you think yourself do you still think then that there's a long did you did you would you imagine that Snoop Dogg would suddenly chill the fuck out the and the ganja laws would be like restrained and then all of a sudden it’s like everything's chilled all of a sudden like you know.
DAN: I mean no one has that crystal ball, what I would say with Snoop Dogg is like the Energy he’s got now he deaf I wasn't there back then when he was doing those meeting but he would had an energy where people go yeah.
KK: he's gonna do this anyway.
DAN: yeah its goes back to the thing about Bruno Major and when I met him there's a guy called will Ward who was my scout but he was originally a black boy uh he now still works a blackboy he went to PMR who's like great guy, like he was the first guy played me Bruno who and as soon as I heard it went this kid's got it there's a kid is so talented, can write in any genre, energy completely, hone in on the craft like if he was a director you'd be one of those people were you like dude he does horror but he does action but fuck he does really heartfelt romance stories is what they can do the lo the's just he's that's what I said he’s kids a prodigy he's a polymath.
KK: Badass.
DAN: he can do whatever he's just I'd believe that like song writing it as a frequency people have a gift and they tap into that frequency I know it sounds true.
KK: no, that's true.
DAN: but they tap into that frequency whoever's tuning in on that day receives.
KK: like well that they can go into.
DAN: or an energy I wanna to write a love song today or I want to write a Rock anthem or I’m gonna chill today, I’m just gonna write a nice little, do you know what I mean like they tap into that got me now even that’s enough I definitely read or heard an interview with bono from U2 I’m sure would it was along the lines of like he he was annoyed that he wasn't tuned in or writing when noel Gallagher received Wonderwall it's kind of like the energy. Don’t know if someone told me that or whether or not but I remember like the idea that stick with him ahead of like yeah I kind of could have heard that as a u2 song but like it was one of them isn't like they’re in there and someone someone taps it.
KK: opens the door. I love that.
DAN: and like you don’t know what people are listen to like my brother posted something today on Instagram about the new Pearl Jam song and he was kind of like oh it sounds like they've been listening to Devo and Kate Bush and now literally listen to two seconds of it and was like it sounds like they've been bingeing out and Talking Heads. Literally. Do you know what I mean. and then now do die that works at cue magazine I sort of liked it and then a couple of other guys who work at crying liked it cos they were just like that's what I'm hearing I'm hearing that yeah I'm hearing they’re listening to Talking Heads.
KK: you've gotta push the boundaries though how hard is that for an A&R like when all the sudden you get presented with an album or a song and you're like oh I can explain this I mean your based on honesty you know your based on that’s what people come to you as A&R for yeah but how often know you faced with that where you really ought to think okay this is great but it's not in the same category as like what they had before what's your how do you process that.
DAN: you are better than this. I like the vibe, I like the energy but you just better than this you know you are like I think what if you're hitting it from honesty like that from the off and it’s not BS then like it's just easier there are the things it's got it's harder to be truthful if you come from a place of nontruth to start with people know you as being the go-to guy of honest and definitely where I'm at now I'm just like there's no like how can you lie about creativity. yeah become what a very good liar and like if there's any questionable are you'll tell don't ya tell me so for me it's like I just be like but with art if I'm in charge of like fuckin, okay this is play it again play it again man we are gonna kill it fuck and it gives me this energy of like .
KK: is it a sound first before any branding or videos or anything because a lot of things are quite video and brand LED nowadays like if you’re straightening the.
DAN: I see music visually like I'm gonna see it yeah how I see you know I'll play out a movie or I’ll play out like I remember when I used to manage Pixie Geldof she was in when this producer called Ludvig and they were doing she we released one album and then it's a pretty cool album, man and then there was bits in it when I was like man like she said was it this song like I can see you in LA setting it's all grey it's all black and there's digital rainfall but it's blood like bloods falling digitally do you know what I mean meaning, it's like it’s when it hits the water, it's it kind of doesn't dissolve, it sort of sets the wall and fire a bit and I remember just everyone thinking what's this guy and but as a that songs creating this image in my mind that's not me I'm just great barren landscape there's quite minimalism but the rain falls blood and it’s really like it's slick but like when it lands it’s kind of burns a bit like that that’s just what I'm that's.
KK: that's crazy.
DAN: but it's true like when I listen to certain songs I just I see certain scenarios.
KK: that's almost like upfront on first experience of this song that kind of makes sense as an good A&R they can if they can envisage that on the immediate impact of the song then arguably they can you can forecast your vision for the forecast of how it's gonna work and how things so I get it when you say that you know seeing past the first year to the ten years to the25 years and knowing what that trajectory is yeah that comes with that.
DAN: I think it depends at look artists make it because I just want it full stop like.
KK: and the management want it as well.
DAN: yeah but the artists have got to want it like amazing management can see it in an artist and just drive on through but amazing artists have to always be up there an artist will drive it through like artists are those people they get told no, they get told no, they get told no, they get told no, fuck it. I'm still gonna do it. where the dangerous is those artists that get told yes yes yes yes yes yeah think it’s easy it's just gonna happen and you need to find that balance .oh it's not just gonna happen you have to it's not like if you in academia you don’t get As at GCC's, As at a level, get first class honours degree and then go that's how I put my feet up now because someone hand me like a million pound job it's a no you you've got yourself in a good strong position but you keep doing that forever. there's no whoa look at Simon Cowell like that dude works his ass off for his money he's on a plane backwards and forwards and I don't care if people at all but he flies but he's earned the right to fly whatever class he wants to fly that doesn't take away from jet lag like if you in LA on Monday. London on Wednesday then in wherever on Saturday then back to Japan on Monday then back to LA you’re a circadian rhythms your body class I'm gonna all be off what money or getting that's gonna take its toll and it just take it's all I mean I’m not good that year where we lost David Bowie and Prince and like autumn leaf I mean what those guys rechannelling.
KK: painful that was.
DAN: something else they were carrying.
KK: the earth lost a lot yeah.
DAN: l of there was a lot of creative souls who who left us that year kind of like think that was here when George Michael died at Christmas time.
KK: it was yeah.
DAN: and it was just like all of these like immeasurable culture genre defying artists who who've lived like a hundred lives in one life who still don't feel like they've gone because their presences still a like they were here.
DAN: and it was just like all of these like immeasurable culture genre defying artists who who've lived like a hundred lives in one life who still don't feel like they've gone because their presences still a like they were here.
KK: Hardcore.
DAN: yeah like Freddie Mercury and Queen always feel like someone else's discovering them every yeah. like I heard the fact the other day.
KK: That’s true.
DAN: that Bohemian Rhapsody the DVD sold over like one one 1.7 million copies and no one buys DVDs not anymore that's a serious volume of DVDs all those people leave a big Queen fans or telling their children about or just get on new people learning about it.
KK: Glee kind of audiences.
DAN: that of brand keeps going. I think that about ac/dc I think yeah like when they were touring I think they were the second biggest touring act of that year world that two years when they were touring if you few years back when Brian Johnson I think lost his hearing and AxlRose from Guns & Roses and step in but it was like what's gonna happen when all those members pass away because people are still want to hear those songs live and go.
KK: well you’ve heard about Ozzy now.
DAN: yeah, what happens there because you can remake a film or you can reinterpret something but how would you keep the music how would you keep the music alive it obviously this catalog and you can keep sinking it and you can keep it in the public conscience how would you give the experience of them that live experience alive like that’s why I'm really grateful when I look back at certain acts ago I saw Tom Petty live at the Royal Albert Hall I’ve heard Tom Petty's live vocal in there and he’s gone now no one's getting that again.
KK: live is everything.
DAN: yeah that's that's gone now, I’ve there seen Tom Petty live, It’s like stuff like that for me is like that’s where the magic is because you’re like you're having an exchange and in that moment that's the fandom do with you you're with them there's however many people in that space and it's no you can catch it on social media but it doesn't capture the magic of it doesn't capture the I'm here you’re here this is our moment that’s where that's where it all is.
KK: longevity innit, it's longevity like and you say like the live aspect that we're talking about people like Tom Petty either you know died of reasonable after a long legacy,you know we're talking about legacy artists here and to your point earlier a lot of art it's just kind of aren’t prepared for the fall it's almost like they haven't got sometimes, they don’t have the full vision of what they want, yeah tell your story .um I was with Sony BMG and I mean mean then parted ways 2006, it was so weird like I've been on there for like the best part of like two years developing and then I've done around to reach through fruit pastilles commercial which did well and then we will have to sit around in a meeting and try and work out well what was the what was the what did we learn here you know what I mean. because I had an album out but I was selling fruit pastilles you know I mean and then all of a sudden, yeah like I was with BMG than that turned into Sony BMG and then I remember just being confused and like thinking to myself well I had that I had the vision of doing something as a bigger commodity to expose myself to more commercial audience thinking they would be okay for an album to kind of follow through in that respect they left the board meeting thinking well because you know you could just as well do an album that does that and there's me beatboxing but by the time that I just couldn't see. and I’m and being on stage with Pharrell at the essential festival I think it was and I was a call saying that you know but they dropped us I, didn't think anything of it other than they know they didn't get it they didn't get it. maybe I didn't get it maybe there wasn't enough give on my album that could have predicted that kind of level of commerciality maybe I was to Radiohead, maybe I was up my prince ass or something but I never for a second thought well what I am going do now you know I hate I hate mike Pickering for what he did to me I love the dude he helped me you know I mean, I didn't think anything of it other than right well I've got just re up let’s go on I know where I got to go you know I mean I think a lot of artists I don't think enough artists think like that because it's the be-all and end-all isn't it when you hit the pearly gates of a record label too many people especially people that have parents that have huge regard for the old guard and they want their kids to succeed must is quite hard for for bands and acts to really face that reality when it happens right.
DAN: getting dropped I mean it happens it's a shame I mean it's I've seen it with a lot of executives who get let go do you know what I men who when you've given their lifeblood time energy hours like - it’s difficult I mean from a creative r point of view I'm just trying to think of examples where look you can actually not just get dropped and then it'd be the best thing in the world for them they goof and they've come bigger better versions of them I've seen an artist’s get dropped by a label then have someone in the wider corporate structure of that company get a massive sink and then that label re-sign us back to the same label.
KK: bet that's happened a few times.
DAN: and then get dropped again I've seen I've seen artists, I'm talking some of the biggest contemporary artists that we’ve got at the moment, I've seen labels put-on showcases for them appear for the first EP here for the first demo and then not sign them up. and then another label sign up and they go off and become the thing. I've seen artists be signed into the corporate grouping in a different territory and then everyone in our territory the UK a pass on it and then it's signed into a different corporate group for the UK and then they become humongous so it's kind of like it’s a strange it’s a strange being. but the the whole point is like someone getting dropped is not a negative thing because thereon do whatever they're gonna do because whether or not someone says they don’t believe in, they don't think it’s right is irrelevant if the artist believes in it and management in the team around that artist believe in it. Its gonna happen it's just it’s happening I mean it's happening I’ve seen artists be on a label get dropped by a label they actually the album they release independently which they might source funding from their fan base be the biggest selling album they have and they then sign that those rights into like a corporation and then sign three other albums that don't work and it’s that one album when they were on their own who was where the magic was I don’t mean so this sort if you’re creative it's not the be-all and end-all this but it's not the, it's not the be-all and end-all. but ultimately the way I view my role in a major label is if I'm signing someone I'm I'm not trying to drop someone, no I'm trying to make it and everything that label is trying to make the people I work with at island just they're wicked man they’re like their family and it's like we’re all in it together we all care otherwise we wouldn't chase the deal down when we’re not a market share company when I’m trying to sign things just because I’m it commercial sense we're trying to sign something because we believe in the culture where it comes from what the message and the music is and who they are as creative entities and that's why we sign them.
KK:I know I think there's a sweet spot to A&R in the same way there's a sweet spot to producers where you’re we’re not goods perfect place of being able to look back at some of the best artists that have had their careers and you’re looking forward into the new shit that there is an age bracket I swear there is I think you're in that sweet spot where you're able to forecast based on some of the things you've seen at the back some of the things that happen at the front it must be a really fucking cool place to be .
DAN: it is,I think that's why I think people are always blows my mind when people don't like the aging process yeah I'm like so much to gain from getting older and experience like when people hold on to you it's like I'm just like I’d get holding on to the energy that keeps you young but from an aesthetic point of view I’m like I don't get that like I did more like I said earlier on I just want to keep learning and don't mean for me that’s the goal just connecting with similar mind similar energies and that’s what inspires me obviously like you’ve you’ve got your look you got your swag you kind of you always want to come correct sort of thing but it's kind of like I think you will cos you just you just appropriate to who you are as a person so but yeah I don't get the the fear of age thing but I get to the point that you were making about there's a sweet spot I guess there is a sweet spot but you have to earn that sweet spot.
KK: hell ya.
DAN: thow easily you want to get the sweet spot cos you earn it and you were listening and you will you were trying to find it because I definitely see A&R's who were younger who were they've got to go through the moves have got to win that deal on their on own.
KK: they are a little bit green.
DAN: yeah they have to be able like for me you aren't an A&R person, you are not A&R person unless you can close a deal on your own you can convince the solicitor the manager the artists the family that you are the person to guide this person’s life and career in the right way by listening to them amplifying and encourage them you are not a A&R you might be learning the ropes of it but I had to stand on my own and all those A&R people who have really made it had careers there's a point where it’s all on you to bring bring this artists into the company all on you to bring this artist in to the company. It’s all on you.
KK: OG inside the building telling you like It is. Exactly. Know your craft own that hit.
KK: OG inside the building telling you like It is. Exactly. Know your craft own that hit.
DAN: yeah yeah.
KK: that's that must be such job getting a sir climbing that ladder and each elevator stop ringing the bell saying I've got this is happening I’ll go upstairs and tell them upstairs go up to telemarketing tell the head of marketing tell the solicitor tell them I mean yeah it takes some fucking balls for those big machines man.
DAN: yeah but it's the same on the marketing side if your in marketing it's there's a lot of pressure on marketeers cis you've got and are going I've signed this record I’ve made this record everyone thinks like I said I don't like using the word hit but everyone thinks this is the moment don't mean what managers going right the video needs to be like this this you’ve got press going, I need the song to go here in order to align it with his fortunes, you've got sink gold at the marketing person when we've got this potential opportunity so you're gonna have to move in the market, I've got control this whole mad octopus like there’s all these different things and it's like so this is just differently there's different different creative bits of the label that all have their own little battle sand Wars it's the same like if you’ve got killer song and you've in you Instagram’s fly and the marketing plans intact the video isn't right we need to release it we need the video now.
KK: like so much of that subject so if you had a delivered record and it was fucking pinging how from that moment there how long is the lead-up time to a release between you and market.
DAN: there’s no rules.
KK: No rules.
DAN: you could sign a record today it could come out what is it today.
KK: Wednesday the 22nd.
DAN: yeah Wednesday it could come out Friday.
KK: really
DAN: you could sign a record that had already been out a week I know you're gonna keep adding.
KK: so there’s no rules to this.
DAN: there's no rules .
KK: its changed.
DAN: there’s no rules I think ultimately when you sign it and you start building and you you you plot plan if you're signing an act and you just you just build in your building if you're going for like we want to win the BBC sample next year then there's a plan then there's a we’re gonna have to do these things like Mean you’re gonna have to see certainty have you sought out this venue are you going on socials are you dropping that’s the mechanics of it that everyone wants to be like yeah yeah I'm not involved in now I'm not interested in that but if you're winning those sort of things.
KK: that’s the ultimate fir4e works.
DAN: I’m releasing what I want to win out of him I don’t give a toss about all of these things then do what you do in don't me just just make the art go.
KK: in a Wiley kind of way.
DAN: just do it.
KK: Just do it.
DAN: just to make those big songs where everyone goes yeah.
KK: do artists like Wiley do they intimidate a marking you know an a&R team because.
DAN: I don’t know never worked with Wiley.
KK: just as an example like no I mean more so those forthright artists that already like carved shit and they are they are they're almost against the machine sometimes they want to run fast it’s almost like an athleticism towards the machine signing those kind of characters must be quite a challenge in that in in the grand scheme.
DAN: I think all artists are challenges in some of the artists that look like they're a challenge on the outside might actually be easier work with, I've worked with people who like seem like they’re challenges but like they know what work needs to go to make their brand keep ticking or so it's like you can have conversations and got x,y&z and they go x,y,z is that you know it’s spot-on and then you do it.
KK: so they're calculated.
DAN: other people who come across they must be the loveliest easiest in the world and you're like I've got no words to describe the experience do you know what I mean and like just just wow just.
KK: Really, really.
DAN: just genuine.
KK: like dumbfounded.
DAN: Wow for me it's not always judge a book by its cover thing it's kind of like mega hit’s like there's there's a theater to it as well some of these people know who the our know who to challenge to how to channel who they are so for me it's just a bit like they’re not what they know what they are doing.
KK: they're you know in your head.
DAN: yeah because I think if you're if you if you’ve had a career is on certain people have other career and you want to keep having a career and you want to afford to still have a career like you know if you’re the pantomime villain you know villain you can do that for X amount use but then you have to drop a massive song for people to go, yeah pantomime villain but banger like you know that about yourself in your business so it's kind of like and it depends when you’re dealing with that character in that phase.
KK: they know it, .I like that.
DAN: totally know them said there's obviously people who who struggle with the whole machinery of it and sadly they also know themselves and know that they can't do with the machinery of it and that's a wider kind of life conversation where and Indefinitely feel like labels where we are now there's a whole duty of care that we have where we want to be supporting everyone in anyone artist and execs who who need support definitely for the creative industries are in the place well let their we're aware of that which do you know what I mean like no one no one is sleeping on that everyone's door is open a normal thing I've gone through tough times herself in the industry which I've got through them on my own but like I I'm a character who like welcomes the fight but like I'm thinking shit if I've gone through some of this stuff and I'm kind of built to fight like this is tough.
KK: tell me your hard times what are your hard times. Overall in the industry you’ve got you said you just you go through hard times what give me some examples yourself personally.
DAN: um one of the companies I was at towards the end of it definitely felt and I've been there along time like a long time and I kind of I’d give them everything what you see is what you get I kind of put all my energy into where like I feel like the years I give them were like double because it was it was the day of shift hours of 9:30 to 6:30 but during that period of my life if I was giving them 6:30 to five in morning. like at least two or three times a week so I think the people they knew I give my all to it the artists know I give my all and like you gotta balance it in thein the decade I was there seven of those years were the best do you know what I mean in there were best I was kind of like constantly progressing upwards and that kind of hit ceiling where I kind of fell I’ve been ghosted a bit yeah.
KK: really really.
DAN: yeah. it's a bit cold and like you as a father I was a dad then so I was like I'm getting great money boohoo I'm getting paid a lot I’m having a hard time but there's the reality of like um like how long is this gonna last now. like it doesn’t matter what act I bring in nothing’s good enough. Do you know what I mean, there's nothing is good enough? like I could do I could sign all these things and it's a but that a bands not recouped and I expected more from that and like that that's great but it’s not as good as that and that's yes you had a lot success with that single but the second single flopped it was it every act has some success with the only thing that was highlighted was the negative bit of the campaign now how could you did yeah yeah now I was like okay, okay I got this and it carried on and I was like is this them is this is this trying to make me feel so uncomfortable that I leave is this the is this the end of me music. I've done my thing now and like got mean and like I’ve got so much more to offer but where it got dangerous just was an out love coming to work have always been happy with music I never felt down I love all the artists because you have your internal relationship with the people you’re working with and then you have external which is the wider music industry. when you when publishing you're dealing with labels when you're at labels you didn’t we publishers and it was that kind of wire thing of like, I'm just being honest it was that thing where I'll just like don’t want to do this anymore and when that question it in my head I was like okay like this is a hard time the fact that it's the fact that it's a complete rational considered thought no I just had with my wife like at 7:30 in the evening when I've came back early one night and gone I don't know if it’s time to like look for other create avenues . I've got lots that actually had that conversation It scared me was a moment like that was like here. it was just a sad moment of like wow I’ve been doing so long now that like it’s a consideration that I would give-up my energy to this business do you know what I mean, when all I've ever done is give everything because all I ever want is to be involved in this business and I was like whoa like what's going on so that for me was like people super close to me got it and knew it but like I'm very good at just dealing with stuff on my own do you know what I mean enough I've got understanding family and who've been around me through all those periods where they've always allowed me to be me and always saw that even and when when I'm being nuts and and off-the-cuff which was quite a lot back back in the day they always knew it was coming from a place of like love ad passion they're not wanting to rain my energy in.
KK: do you think it’s like damage limitation like if you’re able to own your own faults and mistakes because you're saying you do you quite like dealing with things yourself is that is that a protective thing that allows you to you know okay well if I if if that takes a hit, it's my fault you know and I mean it that kind of thing for me for me, I respect I respect the art of counsel and I respect respect the art of therapy I respect the art of people doing that because it's what it’s one of the ways to heal. yeah better for me I I just I personally for me come from like I gotta work this out myself like there's a lesson here, like I'm student love studying I love listening, like I love reading I love listening I love watching films like I love watching film some different angles and it's like for me and like what's the message here why is this happening and like it’s helped me get less. as a kid I lost my best friend when I was younger so like for me there was anger there because of that that I'd never really acknowledged that our constant saw injustice and scuff and for I was really need to fight and like I used to run a club night in Camden just quite successful.
KK: where are you from original
DAN: for a little town called Billingham near Middlesbrough.
KK: okay.
DAN: and that was because it was quite sleepy town but there was a lot of time to read mags war films listen to music hang out and just.
KK: the bests hit.
DAN: and study study I think if there was a lot of opportunity to you were the things I wouldn't have fallen to music because I was studying for a role, I didn't know what was coming in later life.
KK: yeah, yeah. Totally.
DAN: suddenly me and my bro would be in our room with our mates just like albums and albums and album sand watching DVDs.
KK: Didn’t realized at the time that there's something that's.
DAN: yes, we were A&R-ing like I like that song but why do the drums do that midway through or like wish he didn't end it like that or like that weird sound effect what were A&Ring record before we knew what we were doing.
KK: it crazy.
DAN: just for me like I've never really I’ve always tried to work stuff out for myself or book my therapy comes from everybody because I'm always listening as I see life as one big therapy session so I could be sat there like thinking something and someone could go off and say something about their hard time and I'd be like yeah go it , do you know what I means. it's free therapy so I was not doing yeah when people are learning from podcast I was just doing that from normal conversations because as much as I can talk and people who know me go I can talk do it I’m always listening even when I'm talking I’m listening.
KK: I've noticed that about you.
DAN: like I’m taking photographs everywhere like I go. I know where everything’s positioned like when I look around the room, I’m like alright I see where it all is.
KK: what you see here?
DAN: I see a podcast studio.
KK: there you go baby.
DAN: yeah yeah yeah, I want to see a nice notorious BIG ryca Buddha I’ve got one of these I love Ryca
KK: shout out Ryca.
KK: shout out Ryca.
DAN: shout out Ryan Callahan what a talent he is my house is a bit like an art museum and there’s a lot of.
KK: love that shit.
DAN: there’s a lot of Ryca pieces here I've got a lot of Ryca pieces.
KK: I love my, hell yeah well note. I’ll let that you creatives go about your business you’ve just been schooled by a craftsman in his in his career a man of many opinions and ideas and you know bringing things to fruition every fucking year thank you so much Dan I really appreciate you coming through.
DAN: Pleasure.
KK: A&R finest.
DAN: pleasure, pleasure.
KK: legendry all right stay locked on the Killa Kela podcast, we are gonna give it to raw. or don't forget subscribing you stay lucky don't speak to any strange woman especially alright cheers brother. peace