“I DECIDED TO MAKE A DOCUMENTARY THAT WOULD EXPLAIN TO MY NAN WHY PEOPLE ARE DESTROYING THE BUS, THE BUS STOP, THE TUBE.”
Todays graffiti podcast is a landmark art episode where I get to talk with the man that I feel has inspired my weekly graffiti and music podcasts the most. The UK’s Kings & Toys Graffiti Documentary was seminal as an art piece of such underground and aggressive proportions, its almost too unthinkable that all my graffiti heroes were visible and conversing on Channel 4 TV. But they were, and the creative director behind it was the man like Skiny. Here in this rare chat on street art and graffiti, we talk about how the documentary begun, what were the motivations behind the content, how the graffiti artist meetings and stories evolved, the street art missions, the highs and the lows, the creative documenting and way more than I could ever had expected in this latest graffiti podcast. This is the man who set the bar for my podcast. This is Skiny’s Podcast.
PODCAST LINKS
KILLA KELA: Big shout out to Graffiti Kings inside here we go, ladies and gentlemen it's the. Killa Kela podcast transmitting live from central London or as central as we need to be on a Thursday. Um, a lot of stuff going on in the world so we're going soon strictly zoom for the next few and without further to do, I’m fucking excited, like the nineteen-year-old in me is losing his bits and bobs at the moment because courtesy of my boy Eine, I know I am able to have a conversation on zoom with what I would, the person I would describe that not only had the same anonymity as the graffiti writers in his documentary, like to see you on screen brother was like crazy, but not to mention he's at the blueprint of what became my generation, our generations graffiti documentary for the UK. Um, if you haven't heard of this documentary from outside the UK it's called Kings and Toys and man on the other side of the lens is the mighty Skiny the director how are you brother?
SKINY: I'm good I'm good I'm drinking a cup of tea, I'm in Los Angeles but I thought I made myself a PG tip and try and get myself back to the mindset that I used to be in a long time ago.
KK: You got to level it, you got into the zone with it you know we spoke just before starting and you were saying you know that I, you genuinely couldn't remember that entirety of the or getting into that headspace of the doc, you had to watch it again right?
S: Yeah you know like I still like it and I fucking worked really hard to get that thing made and and and even harder to put it somewhere, it eventually played on channel 4 but you know I never I never made a penny from it and I don't regret that and in many ways it's kind of a lesson that I learned from the people that I was documenting is like it's totally fine to put a lot of effort into something that just like walk away and and never expect anything from it other than maybe like you know a picture to remember it by. But it's it's nice like it's nice to know that it had some effect somewhere and it inspired somebody to write their name on some shit.
KK: For real. I mean admittedly, I’ve never been a writer but the ethos and the sentiment that came from that documentary I mean a huge graff enthusiast am I and part of that hip hop culture ethos is the athletic side of like I don't know for, for no good reason Anarchy you know, there's an, there's an aspect to that that I think particularly with graff and street culture it's the more aggressive side of of that world and to have it documented and you to visit influences all genres do you know what I mean?
S: Yeah, I mean like less so now because I think a lot of kids you know they have examples of of graffiti artists who are successful artists and nowadays you can you know if you're 13 and you're clever you can figure out a way of becoming a you know an artist you know you start the path as an artist not as a vandal um you know seeing what Ben's done, Ben Eine you know I mean that the distance he traveled in that and and what an untraveled route he took you know from I think he was an insurance broker to you know designing headscarf for Gucci fucking that's one for the team.
KK: Wow, that's incredible I didn't even know he's an insurance broker that's insane this is one of those things again like what you were able to document within that half an hour piece was was the walks of life in which art is their humble beginnings they're harder beginnings they're their rural beginnings you know what I mean like it was it was such an eye-opener to see the faces to the names that's what I remember as a kid I was just like yeah this is mad like it's on TV, what the fuck, do you know what I mean?
S: Yeah you know we spent a lot of time trying to gain a lot of people's trust and and sometimes you just need one person you know, in this instance it was ELK who was a friend of a friend and and through him you know like any good criminal organization once you once one person says he's good you know you're good. Having gone to New York and found IZ and SEEN and KASE and all those guys definitely gave us some credibility but you know in the end I I didn't want to make a Style Wars 2 - it took me four years to make that film and it was actually meant to be a lot longer but in the end Channel four was like you know you have 35 minutes or whatever take it or leave it and I was like fuck I'll take it.
KK: Yeah, for sure.
S: But you know somewhere my mate Peckham des is attic in London there's probably 250 hours of me hanging out at IZ’s house you know painting trains with IZ, like crazy stuff.
KK: Stop, stop, stop, so you've got more footage that just is lying archived somewhere you've still got that archive?
S: Yeah so, my mate Peckham Dez's mum's attic.
KK: Jesus Christ, dude, that's mad carry on sorry, as you were.
“My nan who lived in Camden Town for 65 years, mean old Irish nan, I decided to make the documentary for her she was the most narrow-minded person I will ever meet and I decided to make a documentary that would explain to her why people write…”
S: You know actually going back to what I'm, the Style Wars thing like that the journey was long and I'd never do, I wasn't a director I was just like I just thought fuck it, I'll figure it out and I was two years into making this film and we went to New York, we met the Beastie Boys is like I just glide my way into anything and everything, TC Islam, Africa, My Father's Kid, we had you know, we went to like breakdowns competitions and after two years I had like 150, 200 hours in the Canon. I came home and I showed my my roommate this girl who's whose opinion I really valued I was like you know here's like, here's what we've cut and she was like meh, and I was like what do you mean meh? like and she says well that's cool if you into graffiti that's cool but like I'm not into graffiti and I was like fuck she's right, so after two years and every penny I had I started pretty much from scratch and and that's really when I, my nan who lived in Camden Town for 65 years, mean old Irish nan, I decided to make the documentary for her she was the most narrow-minded person I will ever meet and I decided to make a documentary that would explain to her why people write, you know like why people are destroying the bus the bus stop the tube and I did it you know in the end I did it in, her name was Elizabeth she's dead now but I actually got her near the end of her life she could only walk to Marks and Spencers and back twice a week and with a with a sharpie one day we she wrote Liz on the bus stop on the Camden High Street and I went every time you go to Marks and Spencers so now you're gonna look at that and you're gonna be proud that it's there, you're gonna check if it's still there see if anybody else has added anything to it and you know when she saw it. Ultimately that's the reason we got the Commission was we were commissioned about as a graffiti documentary it was really as part of this kind of grouping of arts films and you know nothing beats sincerity like if you do something super sincere it'll always work.
KK: Yeah, for real.
S: You know we can be is you know I could have made Style Wars 2, I had access to you know like I have all this fucking amazing footage but what was more important is to explain to people that don't like what it means than to explain to people that already like it how cool it is you know.
INTENTIONS OF A GRAFF WRITER
“ We all want to be known, we all spend our lives doing things to be known.”
KK: Define It, define um as best you can with that intention in mind explain to me what you feel your version of events are. What is it that defines the mentality of a graff writer more so in your mind I mean you're now talking to the choir here by the way so but you just I find it very interesting because there's a document, documenter you captured something that was it was overlooked in society and I don't mean graff itself I mean what the intentions are. Do you not I mean and you must have gone down the rabbit hole to the point of understanding what the psyche is of that.
S: yeah I mean the best way to put it you know the kid that first there's a kid that lives across the street from me Barney and a friend of Mines son William they used to just knock about London with me and everywhere we went they were tagging up we lived on the Highbury Hill and Highbury Islington station, they're just everywhere we went a little scribble little look off we went how, said why the fuck are you guys doing that? Why don't you guys go and do that beautiful you know, mural that that we know we all know and love and and they were like that's not what it's about and in the end what I realized was that you know they they wanted to they wanted to be known we all want to be known, we all spend our lives doing things to be known and their world was literally like six blocks around where we lived in Islington and if they were known within hat world they were famous.
KK: They were famous.
S: They didn't need to be world famous they just needed everybody that they went to school it to go I know who that is you know and and and like you know Goldie said in the documentary which I just re-watched is like sometimes you know you meet like this super prolific guys and you're like you… you’re like uh Shepard Fairey you know I mean seriously got up you know my sister for a while lived in of rural Virginia and I was at the end of her road and at the end of a road it was a fucking Andre the Giant oh so I'm like in rural Virginia, how the fuck. And you know like you I've gotten to know Shepard and he's such a sweet guy you know he's there's there's such a disconnect between the way that people view that scroll on the wall or that poster or whatever and the sweet people that usually are behind it you know
KK: that's right.
AN IMPACTFUL DOCUMENTARY
"You made a documentary about graffiti that made me cry."
KK: Yeah I mean that's in hindsight now um but once a bit let's bear in mind at that time it was so fresh and maybe this is just you know my my teens talking but it was so it was such a new and exclusive documentary that that was just like it was um it was unthinkable, it was actually unthinkable to have TEACH and DRAX and and and ZOMBY and he's like even though they were must up which by the way you know everyone that talks about my podcast when they see ZOMBY’s face blurred out like that they're like, Ah it’s like kings and toys you know. you know bars, bars of like how things need to look and yeah I …I… I get the process of how to get certain writers in rooms and stuff and it's actually, it's actually, it's a so, it's a, it's very much R&D isn't it and you you just got to kind of just be readily available and up for it and ultimately they are the coolest people but but at that time you you know you just never saw it and I can’t emphasize it enough, like how did you get like so you got channel 4 on board at what point when did they see.
S: It was like three and a half years in I had cut kind of a teaser and I'm relentless like if I want something I'll just keep hitting it. I'm not lucky but I'm relentless and eventually I got into channel 4 and the guy who had talked to loved what we were doing and for some reason he was leaving and he passed me on to this woman who was the head of gay and lesbian programming for channel 4 and she had been given the task of commissioning my documentary and so I went in to meet her thinking like ,fuck my boat has arrived and one of the first things she says was I gotta be honest with you I'm not interested in what you're doing, I've been told to sort of do this so let's just do it. And so they gave me a small editing budget because I had all this footage and me and the editor went into a tiny edit suite in Soho in the middle of London summer and literally in our underpants sat there for a month editing because there was no air conditioning we're on the top floor some building in Soho and in the end you know what we finished we burned onto I think at the time was a good DVD or something and I called her and I was like I got something to show you I'm very excited she's like I'm sick just send a copy to my house so I think I'm I sent her 10 of like chicken soup because she said she was sick.
KK: Smashed it, smashed it. You know what they want.
S: and she she watched it and I called her and she said I'll call you back , I’m watching it again and I was like ah this is not good she's sick she's not into it
KK: and your just forced to watch it again. cuz she might have been paying attention and shit like that.
S: Well she, she said you made me cry. You made a documentary about graffiti that made me cry and I was like ah yes um you know sadly maybe it was meant to be short and sweet I don't know it was you know the the amount of effort that went into it definitely you know we had a we had a feature-length documentary there but um you know I'm very proud of those 30 minutes or whatever they gave us and you know it played on channel 4 a bunch of writers came over to my house Ben eine came over and Sam and we cooked dinner with my mom and we actually got so drunk that we missed like the first 10 minutes but uh then we then had a screening in Hoxton square at the time which was like the very beginning of Hoxton square there was a cinema on the Hoxton square and everybody came dude people hitchhike from Berlin we had to play it twice.
KK: Wow
S: it was that was just for that alone it was worth it because when that first viewing finished people just went and on the fuck like the whole of Hoxton square the bar we went into everything just got done and you know pretty much from that night until now I haven't thought that much about it I just kind of like left it somewhere people you know I see that people are posting it online I've never posted it I've never sold it I never yeah.
KK: you know like
S: and my nan loved it.
KK: Exactly you know and I think it appeals to such a broad audience like like you say your nan your mom which I always you kind of go to ok signs right but then you've got like I think detail the attention to detail on it is what's the interesting but like you were saying had so much content well you know with quality you know I mean like and quantity together you okay you spoilt for choice you're having trouble trying to minimize it down to thirty five minutes I get it but but once it's there you you know I said it before we started you know this was the this was the wild style documentary for the UK for me and a lot of other people why not put it on online on on its own channel or throw it out there it's readily available to buy or you know in the same way it's revered like that wild style or Style Wars is revered you not I mean.
S: Yeah, yeah I mean like everything that you see in that documentary I was there you know the there's a particular tube station in London, they got hit one New Year's Eve that you see in the documentary and you know we almost died that night pretty hectic scenario, went down but whole car painted happy new year and when you know yeah I think you're right because I'm still involved in production on another side of things but nowadays you know there's always somebody that can get sued in the process and I just thought it was worth the risk, you know I could always say that it was footage that was given to me, I found you know and me and admitting that I was there I don't give a fuck you know, I'm proud that I was there no home ultimately you know I think that I got a good understanding of it because I I lived it I was young. I was the same age as the people I was like trying to understand and and you know to this day I'm still, I'm from like profoundly changed by the people that I met and their approach to life you know they're they're all a lot of a lot of the people that you know like to remain remain anonymous I like that you know.
KK: yes so do I it hurts me sometimes cuz I'm like I get comments on YouTube people saying you need to get blah blah blah on you get X Y Z on and it's like it's not for the will of trying and I'm sure you'll appreciate this mike it's like you can only knock on some doors before you just like you know what this is I've got a respect their art you know.
S: yeah, yeah it's at the time we this was a Banksy first started I think he painted like
one piece under this underpass by the Borough Market and I think it was Sam that was like hey that Banksy guy because they were people were talking about this anonymous guy they were like you know he's down to be interviewed if you do it anonymously and I'm, me and Sam were like I don't know is this guy graffiti artist and we're like man I think he is we didn't interview him so you know in the end there was a big part in the street show in LA. I don't know if you know about that show but like four years ago three years ago Jeffrey Deitch at the mocha put on like the biggest graffiti show ever like legitimate art and MODE was there painting and he invited me the night before and all the homes.
KK: downtown, was it a downtown event?
S: yeah it was at the MOCA like.
KK: yeah, yeah that's the one,
S: Legit Museum in LA and I mode opened the door and I came in that night before and lychee as all the artists are hanging the work I fucking knew everybody you know I knew everybody and it was I hadn't seen some of these guys in in years and it's like that's the profound effect that it's had I'm good friends with Eine I became kind of a stand in best man at one of his weddings so sick he you know like their friend sadly, I don't see Sam he's an elusive fucker but next time you see him tell him I sent my love
KK: hey listen he's just as elusive, everywhere else whenever I think I met him maybe once part in passing in a in a store but no yeah, I figure there's a lot of elusiveness in the scene to say the least
"You know to this day I'm still, I'm from like profoundly changed by the people that I met and their approach to life."
S: Yeah it's you know like I was like thinking about what we were actually gonna talk about today and refreshing watching the documentary again and I went on Google I wonder what CASE2 is up to these days I knew IZ was dead yeah you know like a lot of these these old boys are dying.
KK: oh and you didn’t know? you didn't that they've been Passing?
S: I knew that Iz did somebody told me he was actually one of my favorites and and in many ways like this may go against what a lot of people think but you know when we were in New York everybody was very much selling us a you know hip hop culture but IZ and actually seen said in the early days and future they said we were in the tunnels painting listening to Boston or ac/dc and like rocking out in the tunnels and paintin trains and it just made me think IZ was the first guy ever to take me into a train yard and it was actually up onto an elevated track in in Brooklyn and I picked him up in this rent-a-car from his house got to go into here like his little Museum of graffiti in his house and about.
KK: hold on one minute one minute go we stay on track what was his yard like?
S: his house?
KK:yeah -
S: It was like suburban you know definitely like not rich, you know, It was just this like a shitty suburban house in Brooklyn near the water and you know everything was him and his wife lived there like normal people. but then he had this tiny little room where he just had hundreds of strips of paint trains that he had painted and then he's just wall of cans and you know that was his own little mausoleum to graffiti so I sat with him for hours and and I think we drank quite a bit and he's like come on let's go let's go let's go try something on the train so I was driving and he put on like I think it was Led Zeppelin but really loud right so we as we pulled up to where we're gonna get out and get into this yard. Yeah I was pretty nervous, New York City I'd heard like there was big rats and you know people would put tape on their shoes so they wouldn't get bitten by rats and people living down there and he said.
KK: Oh my God.
S: Cos all right leave a car so we went from the the Led Zeppelin on full volume turn the car off, we got out and he put on an MTA workers baseball cap and we just walked through the station, we went up the stairs to the station and then we just walked off the end of the platform over an elevated track, that you know has these gaps to trains that were laid up on the middle track of this, I think the trains had stopped or we were in on the middle part of the track or whatever anyways for about a hundred yards we had to walk to this train that was stopped and he just started like doing this thing and somebody stuck their head out from in between the trains went what are you doing? and he's he said you know Barry, why he was probably 45-50 year-old man at the time like you know nothing just mind your own business and the guy wouldn't take take that so he said hey, come here so we we just started walking and as we're walking he was like running behind us but we're you know two stories over the street in Brooklyn cars passing beneath we're try not to run and eventually get in the station this guy's going stop those guys and and Mike's going just walk slowly and everybody's like who should we stop? who should we stop and eventually we run down the stairs would get to the car and I'm like clicking the button to get in the car. I'm clicking it so fast that every time he goes to open the door it won't open and then I get in turn the car on and fucking Led Zeppelin at full volume. I'm just like this is so crazy and the guy got to the car as IZ was in locked the door he's jerking on the car and he's you know on a radio calling somebody and off we went into the night I just remember like dropping him off like 5:00 in the morning driving back to my hotel in Manhattan just think you're like yeah fuck I get that, that's, that was kind of fun as shit you know yeah but it also had that kind of like graffiti you know, put some Led Zeppelin on at full volume and think of graffiti it just
makes it a little bit different doesn't make it any better or worse it's just you know there was there was definitely like a part of the culture even Futura was you know like I think in the beginning he was like a rocker guy which I thought were pretty in first thing.
KK: Yeah yeah. I feel that it's um it's broaden my mind having writers in a you know some of them don't even like but rap or it's, it's. I find it really inspiring when I was going up doing beatboxing and and doing music like my first go to things were like like heavy funk and like metal and thrash and things like that because I wanted to energy and when I look at people like seen or you say like the SEEN of the world the first generation, what the one Futura and the clash and the Americana of the look of the scene you know it makes total sense that he was into ac/dc you know.
S: yeah, yeah I think he's still around right
KK: yeah, yeah, he’s still around.
S: I mean he, I think he was one of the guys I didn't see at that Art Show but I still have so much you know I were very I have a spot in my heart for all those guys they were all you know and and there was a lot of people sadly that we didn't feature in the documentary because there was such a limited amount of space but you know we we met so many people we went Sam and I went to some art show in Paris and Jay One was there I mean some fucking craziness.
"there's only one place that graffiti belongs really, it's on a wall or on a bus or something. It's like you know I rarely see somebody's art on a canvas in a gallery and think that looks better."
KK: Uh who did you wish you who do you wish you had on there that didn't make it?
S: well now I wish Banksy because I'll be fucking rich you know.
KK: that documentary would have paid for itself.
S: you know seeing what Banksy’s done and I really respect it. It's kind of I know a lot of people in the art world that you know, it's kind of it's kind of cool to hate the person that's successful or but I really respect what he's done and his message is of always like you know, he can be a lot richer than he is right now. I really I think out of everybody yeah maybe him I'm sad that I said no to that. Subsequently our paths may have crossed since but you know at that time it would have been really interesting to to have spoken to that you know like what he does is definitely has definitely changed the way a lot of people look at graffiti, I mean even to the point where you know, I'm painting my office downtown in LA and my office is is big in the middle of Skid Row he painted the word flower massive and my landlord was like oh the neighbor told me she lives in Northern California saying oh the neighbor told me that you fucking graffiti the building and I'm like yeah the guy who did it has a painting hanging in the white house and you know you’re building is probably worth a lot more money now and she's like yeah so you know the conversation has definitely changed he's changed the conversation where people now you know people may now think about knocking a beautiful piece or painting over a beautiful piece of artwork because it might actually worth something
KK: yeah
S: not that's what's interesting to me but it's interesting that I know could defend myself with something like that you know this this thing that you think looks so ugly is worth something
KK: Shut the fuck up yeah for sure. There's a lot of things that I pull out of my podcast and to the two of the key things certainly that wide wider debate of like Banksy and pros and cons and the fact that you know to even be able to have this conversation we are having right now there's there is a narrative that's been playing out which suddenly makes it okay for marketeers in the higher echelons of companies to at least know what graffiti is, what it isn't and Banksy has made it given an okay to to endorse it essentially in a lot of marketing campaigns more so than it ever used to right.
S: yeah, yeah I mean like it's rarely done well you know, that's the thing is like there's only one place that graffiti belongs really it's it's on a wall or on a bus or something. It's like you know I rarely see somebody's art on a canvas in a gallery and think that looks better than you know it's just it's the money that that's attached to it in them and the hype and and in ads I mean like, I produce commercials now, I produce photoshoots and we you know I think people are smarter than just putting like a graffiti wall in the background and four kids wearing New Balance and like jumping around like those two things don't mean the same thing it's very obvious when somebody's just put a bit of graffiti in the background of some turd they're trying to push if that makes sense
KK: Yeah,it does it totally does um, Tizer graffiti writer. I’m sure you know him he's he's got he keeps on getting messages from people that what's the what's the dating app a bunch of dating apps actually where where guys are leaning back on his graffiti to pull girls right it's like it's the same type of shit that allows for a more edgy and urban like attitude but that's I guess that kind of falls in line with the street art and the contempt of contemporary, the contemporary versions of graphics like they hacked they kind of hang and lean on the street and edge and gritty rawness of what graffiti essentially is in it
S: you know I only have my own opinion and I I think that it should you know when you on it on a train out of Paddington Station that's where I want to see my Graffiti.
KK: oh gotcha.
S: I don't want to create in and see it an gallery you know what Ben does and the people that have successfully taken what they've learned in graffiti and become artists you know and then I don't know why I'm talking about Eine so much but I guess he's the the best example like he's still a subversive fucker man, he's still like he risks everything all the time he still gets involved with crazy women and situations and you know it's he could be he could be a very different artist but he's still completely true to himself he's still a little vandal and you know he's a he's a real artist in that sense there's there's so many people faking it you know, it's yeah it's I think that's a bigger debate and I'm I don't know enough about art really.
"I was just a member of the public that was curious."
S: Three and a half
KK: how long?
S: three and a half,
KK: there you go and and you know throughout this time you were getting to know these people, these writers, these artists like personally how did the name skiny come about because I thought I just thought you were a writer as well.
S: no and and I think it would have been a very different film like I said if ,if I had been like I wasn't there to, to, to make Style wars 2 - I was, I was just a member of the public that was curious and we we're probably two and a half years into making the film and and ELK and I were In Amsterdam with rhymer and I'm filming them bombing the shit out of everything and at some point rhymer is like here write your name up on on the wall and everybody's called me skinny for a long time because up until recently I was, like great then and then so I just wrote skinny SK double NY and the two of them looked at it in there like doesn't look right do it with one n, so I did and they're like oh that looks better and for the rest of the night we ran around Amsterdam and you know like I got to I got to feel what it was like, I mean if I was making a documentary about PCP I probably smoked PCP so and what's really crazy was years later, I was in Amsterdam and I saw one of those tags and you know like it's very difficult to explain like why that even has a value to somebody why going back to somewhere it's almost like I don't know you know like like finding a wedding invitation in the suit pocket of some old jacket you know suddenly you're like drop back to that time.
KK: That is such an awesome analogy that is so on point, wow I love it.
S: well you've ever seen me at a wedding I'm not really in the remembering mode at any wedding, I’m usually fucked up but it's you know like like the story of my nan writing her name on the bus stop that's what it is is like there's something to that which is the purest part of all of this is, it's a, it's young kids who just want to be you know known for something when they're not good at other things but then also that that remembering I know that that's weird but like I'm sure you know and you know where they all are, I mean around LA I know where people's tags are, it's been 25 years since I really thought about graffiti like like we're talking about now but I still I'm noticed when new things are up when you drive down Melrose, if somebody's done something saying and I always think about the person who's going past there every day you know and his friends that are going pass, like this fucker was on the freeway at some point in the broad you know because the freeways late at night doing something, doing something nominally I like it I think you know we should encourage it never make it normal and I think the people that are painting the backgrounds of fucking tinder you know ads they're ruining that in some way.
KK: Oh for sure.
THE PURPOSE OF GRAFFITI
"graffiti still has a value to fuck shit up, lets ruin people's shit until they start listening to us."
S: I show it, it should always be naughty and it has a value you know like right now it's Monday sixth day of rioting in LA you know, graffiti still has a value to fuck shit up, let's ruin people's shit until they start listening to us, you know. Wouldn't it be sad if one day that I didn't have that value anymore. It's like if the people on the news would say come you know after a while this amazing world. would lose its value you know, if the newscasters say fuck it's gonna be cunting coal tomorrow I like the fact that you know like certain things should stay wrong.
KK: yeah and I guess it's all about how far can you take the wrong, is there a ceiling to that like when we talk about the class of 97, we talk about Kings and Toys era that was kind of I guess for anybody that was coming into watching that and would have been knowing that 70s and 80s graffiti a lot would have changed, but fast-forward to nearly you know 20 years later and you've got yourself well over 20 years later, you've got yourself fat caps that are you know built exactly for thin lines and and cans that thousands of different colors and you know zero, you know creative freedom I guess you're right when you see the riots and I saw a couple of images to see graff in the rawest form up against a burning shop I think it reset in my head what it meant.
S: yeah, it's, it's, it's you know whether it's somebody tagging out or whether it's somebody making a political statement like there's something naughty about a spray can, you know or a big marker, that that has a value, that I don't know if it's being destroyed you know like, I definitely know that the way you know that the Germans were one of us when we were in Germany you know there were the graffiti shops and everybody was just nerding out on being a graffiti artists and
KK: yeah for sure.
S: you know where is all the English kids that I knew they were like steal this shit from like the local shop and there was a different attitude towards it in the German attitudes you know it's definitely more like a fishing and commercial and all right and and I think that that it takes it away from its value.
KK: yeah I, I agree you've certainly being a london-based kid doing things at the age, I was I definitely felt like LOOMIT and DIAM and all those good those kind of characters that were coming from the German sides were incredible, I thought DELTA was incredible like all of toast and a porno kids from Switzerland all those guys were just like incredible on walls and they didn’t for a second think that they had like some special Graff. I just thought they had some fucking hero powers or something because I used to seeing it Being the way we do in London you know.
S: Yeah and you know maybe back then you know it yeah I mean you look at Delta or you know Boris. he I don't know if he had any access to any special tricks but he definitely reinvented the wheel in some ways.
KK: yeah a hundred percent
S: a lot of those guys reinvent the wheel in a lot of ways and, and not that that's important, I think just keep doing the same shit, it works I guess. The film wasn't really about that though, that the film really wasn't about like what they're actually producing it was really more about like why they're doing it, you know. To this day like I live my life very much, I'm not a graffiti artist but I still live my life that that attitude of like you know with that famous Hunter Thompson quote you know you're only guilty if you're caught. It's, it's like if the rules don't make sense to you don't follow them no matter what. It's that's. that's, that's the big message is like subversion is good, it's healthy , that's what you should be doing as a young man and has a young woman you… you know question everything and to leave nothing. And that's graffiti is like such a great way for you know kids who don't connect they're not good at sports, you're interested in sports, here it's a good way to find friends you know, like sit around fucking smoke pot and draw that's amazing I'd rather my kid do that than be fucking taking pictures of his hair on Instagram not that I had kids but
KK: No but I know what you mean, with with the podcast and you touched on the subject of them of not being a writer you know the validation someone like Sam, ELK that opened access for you and but that was he was such an important conduit to what essentially is it it was an emotional sight it was a it was a what what was the motive behind this and you know you see, LOOMIT finishing off his piece and you see you know incredible pieces with it but that's that's the that's an that's not the main focus, and I found that really interesting in and I think you had to go down. I believe going down that wrong route in in podcasting is important because if you want to see the graff you go and visually go and watch it, you go and see it, you find it, you locate it, but to have a deep conversation about them the backend what's behind the curtain I think that’s like the most interesting shit ever man and to you know what I mean.
ICONIC STORIES FROM THE MAKING OF THE FILM
"I was a very different person when I started the documentary to when I ended it and and that's all that you have to be when you make documentaries is you have to be thoroughly consumed by what you're following and understand it."
S: it is you know like these days the Arts District in LA there's the people you can't even imagine the type of people that are stopping to take photos of graffiti that they'll probably never look at again, but you know it's now become this thing that you take a photo of and I don't think many people are really thinking about why it's there, especially you know Sam spent him and I wouldn't drove around Europe in the winter and I mean there's some fucking funny stories but we he never for a second pushed me in any direction never kind of suggested that I should believe one thing or another it was really like I was left to my own to figure out you know what it all meant I mean and
KK: That’s sick.
S: you know he warned me that the Germans were gonna be on tim,e that the Italian guy probably wasn't going to turn up,you know, that the It…. but beyond that I think you know he really let me figure it out for myself and I wish he wasn't so elusive, but really his name has come up at dinners recently and we have a mutual friend and you know he's a he's a super special man. I think he's making art now too you know .That night we drove my for the last part of the making of the film we had a producer who I can't even fucking remember his name but he was some guy legitimize what we're doing to Channel 4 and he I was like look okay we want to go to him we're gonna go to Berlin. and he deals with this stuff and book the flights get the car and he's like we aint got money for that. you're getting on it,we're getting you like a VW bus with like a battery charger for your camera in the back and we set off for London, with I mean there's some really crazy stories but one of them is our first stop was in Hamburg and went to this writers bar near the docks and it was really like again, I'm not a writer, I'm not, so Sam and I went them there was a, we met this guy and he's like yeah we're gonna paint the train tomorrow night so like okay we'll meet you here that uh Sam and I finishing our drinks and we go back to the hotel and I'm like where's my wallet and the passports and everything and I had 20 grand in there all the money for the whole trip.
KK: oh shit.
S: and he’s like you fucking lost it in my bar and I was meant to at the time it was like traveler's checks was still a way to like safely keep your money.
KK: yeah yeah.
S: So we went back to the bar and there was a table this was a writers bar so there was a table next to us and I went up and I said hey I think one of you guys may have found something that belongs to me, if he can just give me the credit card and the passports out of it I'll be you know really appreciate that. They are like what are you doing here and I was like making the documentary you know we just been to New York we did CASE we'd seen and told them the story and I said look I'm gonna go get you guys, cos this bar was so rough, like you got a case a wooden case of like big beers I said I'm gonna go buy you guys a case of beer it'd be really good if my walltr was on the chair and you know I never expected the money to be in it, so I go off and get them case of beer put it in the middle of the table I sit back down the wallets on chair next to me so I put it in my pocket thinking I've got my passport I've got a credit card we can go home defeated but it but at least we can get back to England and we walk outside I open it up not fucking penny taking out 20,000 pounds at the time
KK: oh fuck
S: anyways we ended up going painting something with them you know the next night and life's like like Sam suggested they were on time it was super efficient they're all dressed in black like it was like perfectly German. We went to Prague, you know and we were sleeping in the van which I mean at some point, who was like a there was like you could stand up in the van there's like a little sink, like it camper van, very unglamorous and I remember we woke up in Prague parked on some little side street that had become a very busy fruit and veg market overnight so when we woke up we opened the curtains freezing cold and there was like a bunch of people camped around the van like what the fuck you guys doing here and Sam was so cold in his bag he just said fuck it I'm flying home today, I can't even get out of my sleeping bag and you know we went all over Europe, and in life those tough situations always be the ones that he remember the best but you know that was I guess people seeing us in the way we approached it you know we're willing to spend days and we spent days in Rome, we spent a lot of time with all these people really got to know them you know, It got busy in Berlin you know against such an understated sweet young kid but fuck man he was doing some damage you know everywhere in Berlin when we when we arrived here everywhere you went it was everywhere you know that's it's good to be known for things.
KK: yeah, yeah I mean it was there was artists I thought I'd never heard of before and I was just like yo know that they're actually like the bringing additional Intel on TV of how its done, this is how do you do it. Yo, there’s some guts. yeah you know listen I know your times money and I know you've got a lot of things going on it's .
S: I got shit look at my hair, I haven’t had a hair cut in three weeks I look like my granny
KK: listen brother, honestly ,this is absolute gold and you know I said it's you to start beforehand you know, I fucking appreciate every minute of this and I know everyone out there will as well your tenacity and getting this shit done and yeah getting over a finishing line, it sounds like you went through the hurdles, methodically and persistently and you know no, no task was too too big, you both horns as it were you know I mean what obviously there's a lot of shit to my stuff you take away from that but moving forward you know your profile producer now,photographer you got your own company you live in the states and and things aren't that you know of what was over 20 years ago but what did what did you take from that documentary from it being so well received and it pole-vaulting all the things you're doing now but what what anything it .
S: That’s not true, it didn’t pole vault me if anything um you know it was really like after that night of the screening it was kind of over, there was it was there was a party to clear up and then it's just dissipated since and I don't regret that at all you know. I it it didn't really help me, I went on to become a director for a while I directed commercials which I felt was soulless so I became a baker, I used to sell bread in the Borough Market you know what, what it taught me was like make something and just leave you know let somebody find it. It's an approach to life is you know dedicate yourself to shit the matters to you, you know don't follow the rules if you don't believe in the rules and and yeah like if you make a piece of art don't be afraid to just leave it for somebody to find and it's there was almost a part of me that you know like I said I never made a penny from it if I ever did I'd feel guilty for it because that's one of the things that I remember thinking like oh man I never all this work and I got nothing from it but you know all the work that went into painting these trains and walls and they were covered over the next day so that's just life, you know, just keep keep going. I've made a lot of things since then and I keep making things even though I'm not getting paid for it and I'm getting older but been you know like Ben Eine is a really great example is like he's a total blagger, he's a charming fucker he's got good taste and those three things will get you everywhere yeah you know blag charm he's not particularly good-looking but somehow he's always in the company of an attractive lady
KK: yeah I know the charm you talk I know the charm you’re talking about you can have a beer with the guy and I know he's a good character I
S: yeah, I mean it definitely brings back a lot of good memories you know the end of the film was pretty sad and maybe had I had feature-length to work with maybe I wouldn't have ended on that note because that's not really what it's about, I mean I think when I interviewed the head of the MTA and the British Transport guy I kind of felt indebted to them because there was such nice guys and they were really trying to understand what was happening and do their jobs, I kind of felt indebted to them to show their side of the story and maybe like you know you have to be careful that that that New Year's Eve train that we painted painted, I didn’t paint it but I filmed it, it we we had to climb down and to know we walked off a platform as the last trains were running New Year's Eve and then we went and went up and down all through somewhere very East London pretty close to town and I remember I didn't have a flashlight, I just had a lighter and at some point we had to scatter and I was running as fast as I could with a camera flicking this this lighter so that the tunnel would light up for a second and I'm running along you know like a live rail and they were definitely coming to catch us and the only way out was up a fence over wall and then out onto the street and the fence had barbed wire on it was winter so I had a huge like down jacket on and down Jacket got caught in the barbed wire and basically spewed feathers down on my my pursuers and we escaped and I mean fuck that was close but you know I could died that night and I'm still up to all sorts of risky shit in my life now and and I think risk is very closely tied to reward but you you have to be you know if you gonna go climbing around in the train yards and you don't know what you doing and go with somebody that does
KK: Yeah, yeah, yeah that's I think that epitomizes the conversation I think it's you know with reward there's risk and as a document to myself. I often feel like I sail close to a wind with these subject matters but like if you know what your mission brief is and the reasons why you do it and the juice being worth the squeeze and knowing that. do you know what you just got it because once you start on the road there's just no way of turning back because it's a it's a mold you it becomes a duty doesn't it.
S: yeah to to to the right people, I think to most people you know it's a way of making money or getting chicks or whatever it's, I was a very different person when I started the documentary to when I ended it and and that's all that you have to be when you make documentaries is you have to be thoroughly consumed by what you're following and understand it you know I mean like the world is full of like shit that means nothing you know everything that you see on Instagram is like jerking off in prison it's nothing has any value anymore people just you know you look like a fucking lumberjack from the 1920s with your big mustache and you don't even know how to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter you're not a man you know like don't focus so much on looking the part and just do it.
KK: Walk it how you talk it and be about it yeah let it consume you, that's a good documentary making isn't it ,where you become the… yeah you, yeah you ultimately become the thing that you're you know you become the thing that's incredible.
S: yeah there was a fuck that's a great film, actually there's a film about a Belgian documentary maker who's filming a serial killer it's a, it's it was made in like 90s but it was black and white and it's a documentary guy who's following the serial killer and he starts killing with the guy and filming him.
KK:Oh my god what’s it called.
S: Um, um it was Belgian
KK: that's amazing
S: I'm sure this is not a fun thing to watch in a podcast uh Man Bites Dog fucking amazing film .
KK: wow I'm checking this this is fire. yeah ,yeah the relativity in that you know it also another another good actually it may be a little bit wide but um I have these moments of Frasier you know like when he's like completely the guy that you go to but he's actually fucking kooky and hasn't got it together, its the thing right.
S: yeah yeah.
KK: these thing sorted out when you're talking to people on a one-to-one thinking you've got logic behind you or you're you know what you do and your behavior but you actually behind the scenes is fucking mad as the person you're talking to, listen I gotta say thank you so so much for joining me and you know it's fucking great to hear it's actually awesome to hear that you…. you know you did you you didn't ,you didn't know to what regard that documentary was for a lot of people and and the fact that we're having a conversation, it's so humbling to get your recites of what went down and the fact that yeah we're bringing it to your attention man that it's you know it's yeah it's a documentary and a half man.
S: I'm definitely it's a good feeling to know that people liked it and there wasn't all for nothing again it's it's not about me it's about the guys that you know it's about the guys that we chased and all of them like you know I haven't seen a lot of them in years but they're all still like you know I still consider them very good friends all of them
KK: well I hope if Elks out there watching which I you know I could only assume in guessing that he would be as you’re you’re the… yes I I hope he hits you up and makes contact you know it's easily done and yeah I think that it’s awesome stay lucky brother thank you so much for joining me as soon as I'm back in LA since I'm allowed back in LA we're gonna go for a drink.
S: alright on me.
KK: me first haha
S: Alright brother.
KK: ladies and gentleman skinny inside the place thank you so much pal.
S: Take care.
KK: we like that Killa kela podcast giving it to you hot and heavy that's what we're Doing yeah street culture strictly go share it tell a friend to tell a friend do not sleep on this I repeat do not sleep on this repeat you stay lucky now until next week, peace.
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